This is a discussion on Stop basing firearms preferences on what LE and Military choose. within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mcp1810 I carry what my old department would have issued if they could afford it. ....the county council decided that all weapons ...
The U.S. Military while compiled of the finest of men and women, doesn't always make the best decisions so that matters not to me.
What DOES matter (and I think SHOULD matter) is that LE Agencies use a certain pistol. If a guy who makes his living everyday by putting himself in harms way to protect others can rely on a certain firearm, then it is a good bet we civilians can as well. Like it or not, that has merit.
I'm totally with you on that limatunes and that was a well thought out retort, well said.
I also didn't really dispute what you said earlier, I just honestly think that by the time it gets to the point of "what were you shooting", most people -- most, not all -- are lost on caliber and type and all of that. Outside of a forum like this the general public are of a mind: "a gun is a gun is a gun."
I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
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Here's an example:
The first semi-automatic pistols, issued in the early ’80s, were earmarked for field SWAT teams and the newly formed Hostage Rescue Team. The first pistol for field SWAT was the S&W Model 459, equipped with a fixed, white-outline rear sight and red-insert front. It proved to be an excellent and reliable handgun.
My local department has jumped from caliber to caliber over the course of the last 10 years. They've issued or approved for purchase 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
For the life of me I can't imagine why they keep jumping between calibers. All they need is 9mm as it can do everything they need. With modern bullets it's just as effective as .40 or .45. It has capacity. It's a small enough cartridge so that a service pistol that fits a wide variety of hands can be selected. It's easy to shoot regardless of the size of the officer. What's not to like?
But cops, like most people, read magazines and like to play with the latest and greatest. Unfortunately that means tax money gets wasted on such behavior.
I think the "needs" are very different between Military/LEO and civilian CCW. The way in which the gun can/should be deployed, has everything to do with selection. First and foremost, military and LEO are expected to have to deploy their weapons offensively whereas we're only to use them defensively. Secondly the odds of them using a gun are higher than us and having to use it with a higher number of bad guys is higher. Gideon
I can understand and appreciate the rationale behind following military and police, and I can understand and appreciate a person choosing a weapon based on their own needs, purposes, situations, etc. What good is it to have a X like the M&P if you can't carry it in the manner you need and/or you can't perform with it? If what the M&P carries happens to work for you, great. If not, find something that fits your needs and you can perform well with.
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Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.
"...it is often recommended to carry what your local or state LEOs carry so that if you are ever in a self defense situation and your caliber or choice of firearm is brought up you can respond with, "Well, this is what law enforcement in our state carries."
I don't know about the rest of the world, but in FL the "use" of a firearm is considered deadly force, not the "use of a firearm with any ammo other than what LE carries."
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From your post (#12 on this thread) :
Bill Vanderpool’s actual statements (quoted accurately with emphasis added):“The first one adopted was the S&W 459 in the early 1980's and they were ear marked (sic.) for the then new Hostage Rescue Team.”
“The first semi-automatic pistols, issued in the early ’80s, were earmarked for field SWAT teams and the newly formed Hostage Rescue Team. The first pistol for field SWAT was the S&W Model 459, equipped with a fixed, white-outline rear sight and red-insert front.”…
“Also in the ’80s, HRT adopted the Browning Hi-Power. The first Hi-Powers were customized by Wayne Novak and later ones by the FBI gunsmiths at Quantico.”
A careful reading of Bill Vanderpool’s meticulously accurate American Rifleman article will reveal that you have misinterpreted it in your assertion that it supports your erroneous statement regarding the FBI/HRT’s use of the S&W459. He very carefully and accurately specifies that the S&W 459’s were issued to field SWAT teams and the HRT adopted the Browning. What is not so clearly stated is that the Brownings were the handguns issued to HRT from their beginning. Perhaps you are unaware the HRT is an entity separate from field SWAT teams. Those HRT Brownings were later supplemented with 9mm SIG/Sauer P226‘s, and ultimately replaced with custom .45 ACP 1911’s. Read down a paragraph or two in that article and you might this time notice Mr. Vanderpool clearly makes that distinction in the second paragraph quoted above. A quick call to an old colleague who was directly involved confirmed my recollection.
Incidentally, Mr.Vanderpool was one of my firearms instructors at Quantico in 1980 (Though I doubt he would remember me among the thousands of cops and FBI agents he has trained.). I referred you to his excellent article because unlike most internet BS on the subject, it is accurate (if you read it accurately).
Much more important than this and the other factual errors I pointed out is the erroneously drawn conclusion that the FBI somehow started the nationwide police trend away from revolvers toward semi-autos. In fact, the FBI persisted issuing most agents revolvers well after the semi-auto trend started. Even the FBI field SWAT team agents were issued S&W Model 19 revolvers before they employed the S&W 459’s in the early 1980‘s.
Also erroneous is the assertion that the FBI’s initiated law enforcement’s trend to the .40S&W. Again, the FBI was slow to adopt that round, even though it was S&W’s and Federal’s logical development of the FBI’s own ill-fated “10mm lite” concept. The FBI eventually issued most agents 9mm SIG/Sauer and S&W pistols as an interim measure while trying to resolve problems encountered with their unique 10mm S&W 1076’s. (the 1076 featured a decocking lever a la SIG). Ultimately, .40 S&W Glock 22’s or 23’s were generally issued beginning late in the 1990’s, well after the .40S&W trend caught on with police.
I suppose I should have known better than to waste time trying to stem the torrent of misinformation rampant in cyberspace, but, if anything, the actual story is yet another example of a bureaucratic fiasco that validates matthew03’s original point.
Not all police departments issue guns. Many of those who do, do so following extensive research and testing. I know, because I've done the research and testing. Same with ammo choices. Please don't make assumptions that "all" police departments do certain things.
Some of the bigger departments, LAPD, NYPD, etc. issue guns and ammo, but some smaller departments are not only more flexible, but allow officers to carry what they want, within reason. (Must be service caliber by major manufacturer.) Beginning in the late 80's and the advent of semi-auto pistols for police, my alma mater department, (120 officers at the time) offered Sig Sauer pistols in 9mm or .40 S&W, or we could carry our own 9mm, 10mm, .40 S&W or .45acp. I carried my own S&W .40. We had a small contingent of .357 magnum carriers, a few 1911a1's and one guy who carried a .45 Long Colt revolver.
Issue ammo at the time was Winchester "Black Talon" which later became "Ranger." Before that, we carried Winchester Silver Tip. Cost was not a factor for us, but we were considered ahead of the curve on many issues. When I went into detectives, I decided to carry an issue Sig 229, a very manageable pistol for concealed carry.
Many modern cops are not "gun guys." Those who are not "into guns," take what the department gives them because they know no better and don't care to learn. Some modern officers only carry a gun because they have to and see it as nothing more than a heavy tool. It takes time to turn them around, and some never do. I once worked with a former Marine, who honestly believed that officers should not carry guns on duty belts, but should leave them in the trunks of the cars.
Regarding the military decision to go with the M9, I say it was a dumb, political idea, among a long list of dumb political ideas. Some of the Marine Corp and special ops continue with the 1911a1. My job in the Navy at my permanent duty station, was base armorer and range master. I shot on the 11th Naval District Pistol Team, and worked with the USMC Small Arms Training Unit, developing weapons and ammo for use in Vietnam. I was trained to think outside the box and given a free hand in developing "Downed Pilot" training for Naval Aviators. It was a dirty job, but someone had to do it.
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I see the theory of "thats what the local cops use..." but I dont necessarily agree with the "practice"...I have more than a few guns to choose from for carry, or HD. What if one day I put my Ruger Blackhawk .41 Mag on the night stand....and have to use it that night for a kook that breaks in at 2AM....am I automatically a "crazy, over-kill, sadist SOB? Because I used what was available at that
instant in time? We have all heard the arguments pro and con before. I say use what you feel comfortable with, reliable with, and
shoot the best with....end of soapbox!
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government--lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." --Patrick Henry
I don't appreciate being talked to as if I'm ignorant. I did accurately quote the article and provided a link to it. The addition you made regarding the Hi-Power usage doesn't change anything as I've never said the Hi-Power wasn't used. That's what's called a "strawman argument".
The FBI most certainly did influence the adoption of the .40 S&W and to think otherwise is to be horribly misinformed. While the FBI may not have issued .40 caliber handguns to every agent immediately, they drove the development of the cartridge for LEO usage and worked closely with S&W to develop it for LEO use. It started with their interest in the 10mm and ended with the .40 S&W. You can bet your next paycheck this in turn drove interest in the LEO community in the cartridge.
You obviously think you know more than the whole of the internet given your egotistical comment about how ignorant we (the internet) are. I've found trying to have a civil discussion with someone of your ilk is an exercise in futility and thus have no interest in continuing this discussion with you.In the aftermath of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, the FBI started the process of testing 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition in preparation to replace its standard issue revolver with a semi-automatic pistol. The semi-automatic pistol offered two advantages over the revolver: 1) the semi-automatic offered increased ammunition capacity, and 2) it was easier to reload during a gunfight. The FBI was satisfied with performance of its .38 Special +P 158 gr (10.2 g) LSWCHP cartridge ("FBI load") based on decades of dependable performance. Ammunition for the new semi-automatic pistol had to deliver terminal performance equal or superior to the .38 Special FBI Load. The FBI developed a series of practically oriented tests involving eight test events that reasonably represented the kinds of situations that FBI agents commonly encounter in shooting incidents.
During tests of 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition, FBI Firearms Training Unit Special Agent in Charge John Hall decided to include tests of the 10mm cartridge, supplying his personally owned Colt Delta Elite 10mm semi-automatic, and personally handloading 10mm ammunition. The FBI's tests revealed that a 170–180 gr (11–12 g) JHP 10mm bullet, propelled between 900–1,000 ft/s (270–300 m/s), achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil associated with conventional 10mm ammunition (1,300–1,400 ft/s (400–430 m/s)). The FBI contacted Smith & Wesson and requested it to design a handgun to FBI specifications, based on the existing large-frame S&W 4506 .45 ACP handgun, that would reliably function with the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm ammunition. During this collaboration with the FBI, S&W realized that downloading the 10mm full power to meet the FBI medium velocity specification meant less powder and more airspace in the case. They found that by removing the airspace they could shorten the 10mm case enough to fit within their medium-frame 9mm handguns and load it with a 180 gr (12 g) JHP bullet to produce ballistic performance identical to the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm cartridge. S&W then teamed with Winchester to produce a new cartridge, the .40 S&W. It uses a small pistol primer whereas the 10mm cartridge uses a large pistol primer.