Stop basing firearms preferences on what LE and Military choose. - Page 5

Stop basing firearms preferences on what LE and Military choose.

This is a discussion on Stop basing firearms preferences on what LE and Military choose. within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Had the FBI properly prepared that day, there might not be as much to the story of the Miami FBI shootout. When you go looking ...

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Thread: Stop basing firearms preferences on what LE and Military choose.

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Had the FBI properly prepared that day, there might not be as much to the story of the Miami FBI shootout. When you go looking for armed robbers who you know are carrying rifles, then you better have at least that capability yourself. Because what are you going to do if you actually find who you are looking for?


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Had the FBI properly prepared that day we probably would not having this discussion. The whole jello war got started as a result of the FBI's failure to acknowledge that there were serious issues with the tactics and execution that day. The Inspector's comments in the report stated that the SAs' conduct was "above reproach". I know of no other agency that would describe an officer (or two) losing their weapons during a takedown that way. Friends that worked for the Bureau said this attitude was a hold over from the days of J. Edgar Hoover. Good men died. Something must have gone wrong. It is not possible for it to be the agents, tactics, or policies of the Bureau. The "failure" of a particular cartridge does not reflect badly on the Bureau.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    I bought a Glock because that's what retsupt99 and Ram Rod use
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  4. #64
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    I only carry what charlie sheen carries

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  5. #65
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    ^^^LOL but you have a point...a lot of people see LEOs or MIL as cool. So you kind of gravitate towards what those guys are running even if something better is out there for the same cost.

    Most of mainstream America is brought up to have a certain sense of awe for people in uniform...that's just the way it is. Hell I remember cops coming to my school for D.A.R.E. and remember thinking they were so cool.
    Last edited by rstickle; September 22nd, 2011 at 08:14 AM. Reason: Language

  6. #66
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    i only carry what charlie sheen carries
    winning!!!!!

  7. #67
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    I chose my first CCW/SD weapon for feel, conceal-ability, and "brand reliability" that was 30+ years ago. I long since sold that weapon, for foolish reasons.

    In my more recent foray into HD handguns, I chose inexpensive, reliable, well reviewed (and not by internet "experts").

    For CCW/SD more recently yet, I chose my weapon based on ergonomics, knowing that if the reliability, accuracy, and longevity didn't match the ergonomics, I'd sell the weapon and choose another. For more discreet CCW I carry a smaller weapon in the same caliber.

    The first was a 38 Spec. Colt detective special. (it was up against a Beretta 9mm that really felt sweet in my hand, but the price point was just too high at the time.

    The second were Hipoint 9 and 45, Both have had 1000s of rounds through them and are accurate. With few failures through break in and none since.

    The last were The CZ Vz82 in 9X18 and the Polish P64. The 9x18 round gets some grief, but it is nicely between the .380 and 9mm the CZ is a double stack and has likewise had nearly a 1000 rounds through it with NO failures. The P64 , clone of the Walther PPK for all intents except in 9X18. Has not had as many rounds through it... because it is smaller and thus the recoil is a bit snappy. But it is very accurate, diminutive, and quick to the hand.

    I do anticipate that I will change my carry piece to the S&W Bodyguard .380. "Wallet" carry. Of the little .380's it is one of the top 2 in the ergonomics dept. and the only downside (that didn't make it #1 to me) is trigger pull compared to number 1 (IME) and spending 2X$ for #1 for a VERY slight edge in trigger feel makes no sense to me.

    Bottom line here... I guess I don't think one should purchase a weapon based on what LE uses, Or Military, unless that particular weapon feels best in YOUR hand, and YOU are accurate with it, and YOU can conceal it (if it's a carry weapon). Unfortunately, that may require owning a few weapons. Selling and trading til you get to "The ONE."

    As to caliber.. well that's a whole different debate... and I don't wanna get into that one...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  8. #68
    Ex Member Array gunther71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthew03 View Post
    I find it odd that people base their firearm preference on what LE administration's choose. We see it on forum's constantly, hear it in retort; such and such agency went with product X, so that's what I use. So and so changed caliber from X to Y so that is the best projectile.


    You have to remember police officers carry what is given to them, not necessarily what is the best or most preferred of the status quo. We have seen major departments choose one firearm over another simply because the manufacturer provided leather gear to go with it, took previously issued guns from a different company in on equal or near equal trade for new, offered extremely viable maintenance/replacement contracts, or simply traded out one gun for a new one for no cost, etc.

    Reference the US Military's adoption of the M9; it didn't actually outperform the competition, Beretta was simply allowed knowledge of the bid by Sig and under cut that bid slightly. Not to mention the fact that the contract allowed us to put intercontinental ballistic missiles in Italy during the Cold War.

    I choose my self defense firearms by what preferences and advantages they bring me, not on what fiscally benefited the LAPD or NYPD.
    Very interesting and clever post, I like how you mentioned the m9 bid,
    When i first joined force recon we had several missions that we trained in and one was cqb, or close quarters battle
    While the whole Marine Corps used the m9 beretta 9mil our unit used the 191145 meusoc, and it was pretty sweet.
    We would get eye balled alot from the regular marine units and we had to do our yearly pistol markmanship test with the crappy m9 but we always carried the 1911meusoc for every mission.

    you are most definitly right! carry what suits your profile and comfort level.
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  9. #69
    Distinguished Member Array matthew03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunther71 View Post
    Very interesting and clever post, I like how you mentioned the m9 bid,
    When i first joined force recon we had several missions that we trained in and one was cqb, or close quarters battle
    While the whole Marine Corps used the m9 beretta 9mil our unit used the 191145 meusoc, and it was pretty sweet.
    We would get eye balled alot from the regular marine units and we had to do our yearly pistol markmanship test with the crappy m9 but we always carried the 1911meusoc for every mission.

    you are most definitly right! carry what suits your profile and comfort level.
    Thanks Gunther71, that was my original point of the post, but it was muddled in the following war of who chose what and why. While I personally prefer the 1911 over the M9 as you do, I've also read articles where the M9 outperformed the 1911 in certain situations, (protective details). The tests all involved the 1911 being carried condition 3 while the Beretta was carried with a round chambered and safety off, (could have been on I can't be sure). Of course that makes for a pretty unfair comparison when you compromise the 1911's system like that.

    Where protective details using the M9 could draw and fire while sweeping the principal behind them with their weak side arm, the detail using 1911's whom were required to carry chamber empty, hammer down had to sweep the principal out of the line of fire first, then draw and chamber a round before engaging the threat.

    Did you get a classic Colt re-built and customized by the Marine Armor's or did you get one of the later Kimbers?
    If you saw both which did you prefer?
    Also, thanks for you service Marine.

  10. #70
    Member Array Geronimo45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexster View Post
    Yes, but on the other hand, a bunch of other folks testing a weapon in the real world can be an indicator of reliability and ruggedness, which can increase my comfort level. Like bmcgilvray, I will if I want to!
    This. Also feedback from users. Some guns haven't been widely used (for whatever reason), and don't have a lot of information on reliability and accuracy. Guns used by LEOs and .Mil folk tend to be widely used and thus have lots of reviews, negative or positive. This lets you know (without putting hands on it) about the gun's major deficiencies and issues. Also, these widely used guns tend to have lots of holsters and accessories for them. I like accessories.
    But I do agree with not just picking a gun because the Army (or the cops) used it. At least find out if the users actually liked it. Plenty of turkeys have been accepted by LEO and .Mil procurement.
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  11. #71
    OD*
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthew03 View Post
    Did you get a classic Colt re-built and customized by the Marine Armor's or did you get one of the later Kimbers?
    If you saw both which did you prefer?
    Also, thanks for you service Marine.
    In addition to the 100 Kimber ICQBs they purchased for testing, they also purchased 150 of the PC9111MCs, the Springfield Professional Model.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

  12. #72
    Distinguished Member Array matthew03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    In addition to the 100 Kimber ICQBs they purchased for testing, they also purchased 150 of the PC9111MCs, the Springfield Professional Model.
    So what was the verdict? I never got much of the follow up story on the MEUSOC 1911 saga other than the Colt's frames were getting a lot of age on them and an order was placed with Kimber, (and apparently SA as well). Did a contract come through for either company? What is being issued now?

  13. #73
    Senior Member Array Chesafreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    BUT.. it is often recommended to carry what your local or state LEOs carry so that if you are ever in a self defense situation and your caliber or choice of firearm is brought up you can respond with, "Well, this is what law enforcement in our state carries."
    Same reasoning I used in getting a Glock 23 and avoiding the "Judge", "Pit Bull", etc.

  14. #74
    OD*
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthew03 View Post
    So what was the verdict? I never got much of the follow up story on the MEUSOC 1911 saga other than the Colt's frames were getting a lot of age on them and an order was placed with Kimber, (and apparently SA as well). Did a contract come through for either company? What is being issued now?
    Actually, Springfield's were ordered before the Kimber ICQBs.

    General Information

    Document Type: Special Notice
    Solicitation Number: M67854-05-M-1038
    Posted Date: Feb 15, 2005
    Original Response Date: Mar 16, 2005
    Current Response Date: Mar 16, 2005
    Original Archive Date: Mar 31, 2005
    Current Archive Date: Mar 31, 2005
    Classification Code: 10 -- Weapons
    Naics Code: 332994 -- Small Arms Manufacturing

    Contracting Office Address
    Department of the Navy, United States Marine Corps, Marine Corps Systems Command, 2200 Lester Street, Quantico, VA, 22134-5010
    Description
    This is notice of intended sole-source procurement on behalf of the Marine Corps Systems Command (MCSC). The procurement is for Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU), SOC .45 caliber pistol posted in accordance with FAR 5.101(a)(1).

    The Marine Corps Systems Command (MARCORSYSCOM) intends to contract on a sole-source basis with Springfield Armory, 420 West Main Street, Geneseo, IL 61254 for MEU (SOC) .45 caliber pistol and associated packaging, marking and shipment. The following represents the governments intended parts list with quantities covered by this solicitation:

    (1) PC9111MC: Professional 1911-A1 .45ACP pistols
    Number: 150


    The anticipated dollar amount is $284,850.00

    Period of Performance: Date of Contract to 31 March 2005.
    FOB: Destination
    Delivery Point(s):

    1. 75 pistols delivered to:
    DODAAC: MMSA01
    Marine Corps Logistics Base Albany, GA
    Traffic Management Officer
    MCLB Bldg 1221 Dr 20
    MF FSD MMSA01 Weapons Whse 1340 Dr 9
    Albany, GA 31704-5000


    2. 75 pistols delivered to:
    DODAAC: MMSA02
    Marine Corps Logistics Base Barstow, CA
    DLA and G MF MMSA02
    Bldg 625 WE Yermo Annex
    FSD MCLB
    Barstow, CA 92311-5048


    I have a good friend who was an MOS/8541 (now renamed 0317 I believe), anyway, when he was attached to a Force Recon unit he was issued one of the PWS built 1911s, apparently his follow Marines that did get issued one of the Kimbers or Pros, thought they were a little tight, that's been the only complaint I've heard, but I only know the one Marine that was issued an MEU(SOC) pistol too.

    Neither company was awarded a contract (besides the test pistols), the USMC changed it's wants and now are looking at a new pistol to be designated the M45. Colt and Springfield were the leaders the last I've heard, and rumor has it, Springfield dropped out of the competition. Currently, the Precision Weapons Section is still building the pistols on the old original receivers and using off the shelf components, such as BAR-STO barrels, some slides were ordered from Springfield Armory, beavertail safeties and recoil spring guides came/come from Ed Brown. Novak was contracted for rear sights, Wilson Combat provided extractors and mag release buttons, while King's Gun Works supplied ambidextrous thumb safeties, when they were still in business.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

  15. #75
    Distinguished Member Array matthew03's Avatar
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    Good info OD*, I'll have to do some web surfing on this and see if anything new has been put out there on the MEUSOC's quest for a new fighting handgun. I would really love to see Colt get back in there and eventually offer a custom/modernized 1911 to the general public based off of a Marine Corps gun.

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