Shot placement ??? - Page 2

Shot placement ???

This is a discussion on Shot placement ??? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by rockymtnnut I have come to the conclusion that too much emphasis is placed on shot placement . When we shoot at paper ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockymtnnut View Post
    I have come to the conclusion that too much emphasis is placed on shot placement . When we shoot at paper targets there is no stress involved. when training I often see a very slow draw, a very slow first shot and very slow subsequent shots. and usually good instructors respond if you were fighting a paper bad man he would be dead but if you were fighting a bad guy with a heartbeat he probly would have shot you first . work on speed then accuracy will follow.
    Let me know how working on speed before accuracy works for you, I would imagine not very well.

    Either way, you need solid fundamentals in order to survive a gunfight. In today's Corps, the Marines teach know distance shooting first, establishing a solid base, and then after qualifying, you move onto more advanced, higher speed combat shooting. And the acceptable level of accuracy is different between the too. You aren't going to wring out sub-MOA or MOA groups in combat (STA members, this may not apply to you), but you need to get rounds COM on target.

    If you can't get your bullets to go when you are cool, calm, and collected on a range, then you aren't going to get them to go where you need them to when you try to go too fast in a lethal situation.

    Good range accuracy shows you have the basics down, once that is accomplished, move on to more advanced techniques. But in doing so, don't forget the basics.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    Let me know how working on speed before accuracy works for you, I would imagine not very well.

    Either way, you need solid fundamentals in order to survive a gunfight. In today's Corps, the Marines teach know distance shooting first, establishing a solid base, and then after qualifying, you move onto more advanced, higher speed combat shooting. And the acceptable level of accuracy is different between the too. You aren't going to wring out sub-MOA or MOA groups in combat (STA members, this may not apply to you), but you need to get rounds COM on target.

    If you can't get your bullets to go when you are cool, calm, and collected on a range, then you aren't going to get them to go where you need them to when you try to go too fast in a lethal situation.

    Good range accuracy shows you have the basics down, once that is accomplished, move on to more advanced techniques. But in doing so, don't forget the basics.
    I could not agree more, how much time did we spend aiming an empty rifle at a 55 gallon drum before the even let us fire our first live round.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqgrill View Post
    I could not agree more, how much time did we spend aiming an empty rifle at a 55 gallon drum before the even let us fire our first live round.
    When I went through, it was about 4-6 hours a day for a week, at least.
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  4. #19
    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    When I went through, it was about 4-6 hours a day for a week, at least.
    And, that is the bottom line there is no substitute for fundamentals.
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  5. #20
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    I never argued against fundamentals . In there last class I took students that were without instruction never paid much attention to combat speed. It wad a continuous slow pace. I will never argue against basic marksmanship.but if you're taking well aim shots at 7 to 10 yrds in combat you're going to die . I'm speaking of people who are past basic marksmanship phase. We were drawing from holster. If you listen to anything Rob Pincus says he will state if your groups are small speed up, if you are missing the target slow down . Be proficient in your draw, put rounds on the bad guy quickly ,and seek cover. Now if you are at distance that's another story. I shoot a match m1a and every round is basic fundamentals, but no one is shooting back and my bad guy is made of paper and doesn't move. Ps this is good discussion.

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array grouse's Avatar
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    Shot placement is an option if one is deer hunting shooting the animal from ambush waiting for it to move just so then squeezing the trigger gently.
    But when one is under attack with only seconds to react to a moving atacking target I just don't quite understand the concept of" shot placement".
    Thought thats why they teach "center mass".

  7. #22
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    "I've come to the conclusion there is too LITTLE emphasis on shot placement."

    Amen!
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  8. #23
    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grouse View Post
    Shot placement is an option if one is deer hunting shooting the animal from ambush waiting for it to move just so then squeezing the trigger gently.
    But when one is under attack with only seconds to react to a moving atacking target I just don't quite understand the concept of" shot placement".
    Thought thats why they teach "center mass".
    I am not sure which is correct tell me; either, you don't hunt or you maim a lot of animals. Shot placement is vital to effectively harvest big game and just as vital in defending ones life in a violent attack.

    Well said bmcgilvray:
    "I've come to the conclusion there is too LITTLE emphasis on shot placement."

    Amen!
    SFury likes this.
    "To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT

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  9. #24
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    Gents. Target accuracy is one thing, Combat accuracy is another. You are the only one to decide if your combat accuracy will allow you to defend yourself or others in a SD situation.

    Shot placement during a SD encounter is the ability to place your hits COM on the bad guy or either enough rounds outside the COM or into another part of the body that will render him a non threat. It does not mean 2 rounds one inch apart on the third chest hair to the left of the nipple. Combat accuracy is the same thing.
    Being able to put rounds where they will do the most good on the bad guy. Now the question is can you obtain this combat accuracy at 3 yards, 7 yards, how about 15? Could you make an effective body shot on a human size target at 25 yards?

    The time in which you can do that is up to you. You cannot put speed first and then accuracy will come later it does not work like that. You can never shoot fast enough to make up for a miss.

    The simple fact is if you cannot hit a pie plate size target on the square range, from the holster, at 7-10 yards, all the time, you will probably not hit your target under stress at half that distance so you need to practice until you can do that or better. You should be able to draw from your holster and fire one round into the center of mass of your target in 1-1.5 seconds. You can fire 36 rounds in 4 seconds but if you dont hit the guy somewhere important or hit him at all it does not make any difference. You must have the fundementals down pat or when the time comes you wont survive the encounter because you will fall to the level of training that you have obtained.

    My dad was one of most skilled bullseye shooters the USMC ever produced in both rifle and pistol. He was a member of the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol Team for the majority of his career. He was a Distinguished Expert his entire 30 year career in the Corps. He won every award, badge, trophy he could win and was a member of the Presidents 100 and he passed on to me those skills which made him that good, the fundamentals of marksmanship.
    He did not get that way overnight or without hours of practice. I remember him in the living room snapping in with his pistols or prone on the floor with his rifles or in the garage with an olympic style pellet gun shooting at a target the size of a quarter and hitting it every single time from across the room.
    Every summer was spent on the road at any rifle or pistol match you could take part in so you could earn points to end up at Camp Perry. You do not learn those things from reading a magazine article or watching a video. Sure you can get the technique or an idea but if you do not practice those skills and get you butt and head wired together when you have to do it for real it will not happen.

    If you want to play the range mastubation game and fool yourself by saying "OOOOOH looky what I can do, most of the time, well ok sometimes, well except last Tuesday when I could not hit anything, with no time limit, and not under stress" go ahead but when the doo doo hits the oscillating device be prepared to lose the encounter. Hopefully you will come out of it whole and can chalk it up to a learning experience if not oh well your friends can say "I dont understand he was such a good shooter".

    For those of you that say I can't do this or that because of cost or time here are some ideas from a previous post.

    Do you practice or do you train?
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #25
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    Certain activities can, and do, help with preparing for the stress of an armed encounter. Highly active shooting competitions, firearms self defense courses (maybe not the basic ones), and hunting come to mind.

    Trust me, practice makes perfect. If you train yourself to aim automatically in practice, and have done some form of stress training (examples given above), you will find that you aim automatically. You respond automatically. You don't think, you do. When the fight is over, it's over, and your body will be racing due to the adrenalin dump that happens.

    To not have the most basic fundamental down for firearms use, proper shooting technique, then you might as well keep your firearm at home. You don't need to be able to shoot a fly off of someone at 50 yards, but you should be reasonably accurate out to at least 7 yards when you are at the range.

    For you to even suggest that proper shot placement should not be practiced, shows how much you have to learn still. No one knows everything, but certain basic facts are recognized as a necessity for a reason. There's a reason why proper shooting techniques are emphasized so much, by so many, in the shooting industry. It's the second thing that should be taught when shooting. The first thing of course, is the four basic rules of gun safety.
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  11. #26
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    In my simple mind, I figure this... You do the best you can. Select the best pistol you can. Select the best ammunition you can. Make the best shot you can.

    Until we invent a weapon that instantly incapacitates any aggressor with any amount of contact, center mass shots seem best.
    Washington Post 06/28/2010 re: Supreme Court Decision
    "The court's decision means that the enigmatically worded Second Amendment... identifies an individual right to gun ownership, like the freedom of speech, that cannot be unduly restricted by Congress, state laws or city ordinances. "

  12. #27
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    I was only quoting a line from a post bsms made back up the way.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

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  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array grouse's Avatar
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    bbqgrill, What I am trying to say is while hunting one CAN WAIT tell the time is right to pull the trigger and if the animal does not make a good presentation DON"T SHOOT! I Have killed nearly 30 deer with rifle bow & muzzle loader (traditional) & have never had to shoot twice because when hunting I can wait for the perfect shot. Or not shoot.

    In a defensive fight of course you want good shot placement but with seconds or less it seems to me that trying for perfect shot placement could get you you killed. USE YOUR SIGHTS IF YOU CAN & HOLD CENTER MASS!

  14. #29
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    Grouse you are correct in that in those few seconds that perfect shot placement may be less than perfect.

    It was taught that if you made your shots COM and the person kept on coming then you put a round in the head, or triple tap. Well looked good on paper but try hitting the moving ball that would be the head on a person coming at you. In more modern theories you aim for the next biggest target, the pelvic girdle. This area is very vascular, contains the hip and bladder and the head of the femur.

    Now one shot lethal stop here, probably not but you fire into this area it can mechanically break him to where he either can't fight or has lost the will to fight. He damn sure will not be able to stand up and runs the great risk of bleeding out.

    Perfect shot placement in milliseconds can be done when all is right with the world but since those then moments do not occur very often you shoot your opponent to the ground, period. You do not stop firing until he stops whatever it is he was doing to shoot him in the first place. Not 2.3 rounds in 3 seconds at 7.2 yards, until he stops. As I have said before you either hurt him so bad he does not want to play anymore or you break him up so bad he cannot play anymore.

    When all is said and done perfect shot placement is whatever worked at that moment to stop the threat. Whether it is one round or fifteen.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post

    It was taught that if you made your shots COM and the person kept on coming then you put a round in the head, or triple tap. Well looked good on paper but try hitting the moving ball that would be the head on a person coming at you. In more modern theories you aim for the next biggest target, the pelvic girdle. This area is very vascular, contains the hip and bladder and the head of the femur.

    Now one shot lethal stop here, probably not but you fire into this area it can mechanically break him to where he either can't fight or has lost the will to fight. He damn sure will not be able to stand up and runs the great risk of bleeding out.
    While I also agree with the targeting of the pelvic girdle as a good option, I think it is better suited as a rifle target that pistol target. Included in the "very vascular" categoy is that both femoral arteries start here, at a junction with the descending aorta. With a rifle particularly you have a good chance of breaking the pelvis, which causes a mobility stop. Also, with the structure/shape of the bones in the region, with something like a 5.56 round that tends to deflect and bounce around when it hits a hard, bony structure, the odds are very good that the bullet will travel upwards into the vital regions of the body.

    I think the biggest drawback to targeting the pelvic girdle in a SD encounter is that you are going to need an expert to convince the jury as to why it is a legitimate target, as opposed to you just being a sadist. After all, TV tell's juries we should be able to just "wing him in the arm" and get him to stop.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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