Shot placement ???
This is a discussion on Shot placement ??? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So, Grouse, you've never been in a situation where you have seconds to make a choice to shoot or not shoot? I find that hard ...
October 30th, 2011 05:17 PM
So, Grouse, you've never been in a situation where you have seconds to make a choice to shoot or not shoot? I find that hard to believe. Hunting can be a game of patience where you get a very quick opportunity to get your animal or not. I had a very brief window to make my shot on the buck I took last year. Had I hesitated, or not used the proper caution as he was walking by me, I would have not gotten my buck when I did. He would have been gone.
Stand hunting like I do, is like ending up in a bad situation where a BG comes into a place with multiple people. You have to not only be able to make the shot, you have to hide your armed presence long enough to be able to position yourself to make the shot. Tactics. Hunting helps build some of the fundamentals needed for defending yourself.
Apparently you don't bird hunt. There, it's all about making fast accurate shots. Same thing if you do any trap shooting.
Your comparison of hunting to self defense isn't all that accurate in many cases.
October 30th, 2011 05:36 PM
What I miss most about my LE firearms and tactical training is the force on force with simmunitions.
There is no substitute for being shot at and having to shoot at your attackers and get hits that are counted as fight stoppers.
Proper mindset comes before anything else.
I have on many training days seen officers who score very well on the range in basic qualification on paper get their butts handed to them in force on force.
Controlled aggression with the ability to place accurate fire on the target is what gets the job done.
You do fight the way you train and the closest we can come to actual combat is force on force.
October 30th, 2011 09:56 PM
SFury, In my life of hunting, my passoin,I have had to shoot fast & accurate often. I don't like tracking in the dark or wounding game so many times you just don't shoot. As for bird hunting I spent most of the past Sat. at Chyenne bottoms (a duck marsh) & came home with 5 of my 6 duck limit. I will hunt it again next Sat. then from the 2nd sat in Nov tell the last day of Jan. I will hunt upland birds every chance I get & throw in a deer hunt.
I don't understand how "shot placement" has a thing to do with bird hunting. Yes bird hunting is always fast & furious,thats why we do it. Shotgunnig is a matter lead, choke constriction, shot size, shotgun gauge & type and range.If you mean one needs to place his shot charge where the bird will fly into it then yes we are on the same page.
I guess as a lifeime hunter when I hear the term "shot placement" I think of all the arguments of caliber vrs. bullet weight vrs. muzzle velocity vrs. animal weight ect ect ect. as it concerns big game animals.
Perhaps comparing defensive shooing to hunting is a poor analogy.
I kill all manner of game every season so it is second nature to me to know I have to hit what I'm shooting at "shot placement''. So when someone refers to shot placement in regaurds to defensive shooting that is shooting to save your life or more importantly ones family, as hunters knowing game can sometime take a lot killing even when we do everything right the term "shot placement" is a NO BRAINER !
As hunters we know we wouldent have much time in a defensive engagement we know we have to hit the vitals we know the bad guy might not be instantly incapacitated.
So when the term "shot placement" is used as maybe something defensive shooters should think about..... we hunters just sigh....
October 31st, 2011 12:01 PM
I hunt as well,but when I hunt I wait in ambush waiting for my best opportunity just like a thug would at a covienant store at 1 am when you stop for milk for your kid. They decide when and were the fight starts. When hunting I have never had a bull elk return fire. None the less I am not dismissing basic marksmanship it is vital. There comes a time in our training when its time to work on speed and efficiency.
In a gun fight I can't imagine squaring off ,remaining still and taking a slow and steady shot. Be fast hit hard and don't be still. Work on your draw , work on press outs and start fireing as soon as your piece clears your leather.
IT HAPPENS FAST VERY FAST!
October 31st, 2011 12:08 PM
Is it better to have three or four shots in a 6-8 inch centermass group,or having them all in a 1-2 inch group,It's better to get a hit on target fast,then follow up if needed,small groups are taught for self control of the sights,trigger,grip of the gun.
October 31st, 2011 12:29 PM
Remember more than anything, we're here to help each other .Topics such as this is good discussion, it opens up our minds and thoughts on training . There are good arguments on both sides so let's keep it up.
Remember the ideas presented here could help be the difference when we defend our lives and our families lives. When seconds count police officers are minutes away. We protect what no one else can.
October 31st, 2011 01:23 PM
This is all about not getting killed right?
By that I mean, you don't want to be shot.
The sooner you are at landing fight stopping hits, the less you get shot at.
The better you are at making those shots from disadvantaged position, the less you got shot at.
I an effort to acomplish this, you need to do several things:
1) Have your fundamentals. If you can't make a round go to the spot you want it to when nobody is trying to kill you, do somthin bout that now, because you are useless to anyone without that skill.
2) Once you can make the bullets go to the right spot every time, work on doing that faster. Shoot against a timer. Shoot small targets against a time. Shoot small targets which appear at random against a timer.
Why? Because while you don't want to be shot, neither does the other guy who believes you aught to give him your stuff, thinking he's in the right...so he's likely to move really fast on you, and present you with a bad target for just a second, and you can either take that shot...or not.
3) Apply what skills you have in a Sim's class and see what you can do against motivated people who want to shoot you dead.
Yeah, you are gonna get your ego smashed like an baby rabbit with a brick - deal with it. Training is supposed to suck, because if you aren't training against motivated people who are above your skill level, then you are at a turkey shoot - not training.
(Hint: If you are the baddest guy at the training, find another group. Be the guy who has the most to learn in your group, because you DON'T know it all)
As to shot placement with handguns.
Service caliber rounds suck goat...Really hard. They are ineffective, hardly lethal things that are carried because they are convienient, not effective.
You can get effectiveness with these sucky little quali-bullets by putting them in the central nervous system, or by making enough holes in the cardio vascular system to the point of exsanguination.
(In other words "da brain, da spine or da heart is the place you gotta be shootin the bad guy
Either put the sucky little bullets in the right places when the opportunity is available - or don't.
Either be accurate enough and fast enough...or fail.
In which case, if you fail, please take a look at someone dear to you, and wonder what it would be like to think in your last moments "I wasn't good enough for them..."
Stop accepting "Good enough" and stop thinking "Best case of worst case" as the reference poing for your ultimate test.
It may never come...or it may be at your door getting ready to kick it in.
Either way, you will have prepared long in advance of the situation, or not.
But if you want to prepare, know this - Their is no substitute for exquisite fundamentals applied agressively and explosively. No killer ammo, laser sights or cooler gun can replace the ability of someone to deliver a fast, accurate hit on demand.
If you think you are going to buy that skill with hardware rather than sweat, empty brass, hours and hours of dryfire and not an insubstantial amount of ego deflating, disapointment and ruthless self assessment (determining "I need to work harder!") you are mistake.
October 31st, 2011 01:28 PM
And that's the name of that tune. MitchellCT just handled it definitively.
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
October 31st, 2011 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by MattInFla
"There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition
October 31st, 2011 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by MattInFla
James Yeager, Tacticalresponse.com/Getoffthex.com
Massad Ayoob (If you don't know who he is, get out from under the rock you have been hiding under since 1975...)
Chris Adams Specter Tactical: Home (The website sucks, the training is great...)
Michael de Bethencour, Snubtraining.com (He's insane in a good way, and a great instructor)
Sig Academy (They have good training and the ability to put up with me, those poor people...)
Claude Werner, Firearms Safety Training LLC, Firearms Safety Training LLC - Home for the 1,000 days of dry-fire program through Totalprotectioninteractive.com
October 31st, 2011 02:33 PM
Todd greens take on the figure 8 drill is a good start. One topic I would relate to this thread is simply being in shape physically. Try to fire when you are out of breath its dam hard to be good.
November 12th, 2011 06:13 AM
I largely disagree with MitchellCT.
I don't plan on spending my life practicing hours a day for a highly unlikely scenario - the group of highly motivated thugs who are going to try to kill you no matter what. Very few CCW holders will - either do that level of practice, or need to do so. I have a life to live, and lived much of it without carrying a gun at all. If 8 guys go up against me & my 5-shot Model 60, or even my 7-shot 686, I'm screwed. If a group of 20 gang-bangers show up at my door ready to die to get in and kill me, I'm dead.
I've met a guy who practices his draw a minimum of 30 minutes each night. I think he is weird. Let's see...help my daughter with her homework, or spend an hour that night practicing my draw...
Like most who carry, I carry because I have a life, not because I want to be super-ninja. And no, I don't carry 50+ rounds with me everywhere I go. In fact, mostly I don't bother going, if it is night. Pretty much nothing is going on after 10 PM that I care to be involved with. After all, I'll be up at 5:30 to have a cup of coffee or 6, and to feed the horses and dogs.
"3) Apply what skills you have in a Sim's class and see what you can do against motivated people who want to shoot you dead."
In my prior life, I flew in the US Air Force. I did a lot of flying at Red Flag. And one of the things I learned is that while Red Flag could be good, it could also lead you down the wrong path by preparing you for a fight that probably won't happen, and that teaches bad habit patterns for the fight that WILL happen. I won't discuss the reasons why Red Flag can be counter-productive on a public forum, but if the military can spend uncounted millions to simulate combat and in some respects fail, then I doubt very many of these 'force-on-force' simulations are much more than a way for folks to make money.
I also had a chance to attend an Army course in urban combat, and even play the bad guy for a day in a 'city' with all the equipment provided by the Army. If you know you cannot really be killed, as a bad guy, you can and maybe will act in ways that make you an unrealistic opponent. And if the US Army has to deal with that fact, then how much more a force on force training exercise run by someone with limited funds? Heck, from the video I've seen of SWAT teams at work, and from their lethality against dogs, I'd say a lot of expensive training doesn't count for much.
Here is a sobering fact:
If the guy is TRULY determined, and you shoot him anywhere besides the brain, he has 10-20" to shoot back, no matter how often you hit him or with what (in a handgun caliber - things change if you pull out your 30-06). Hit him in the heart with a 44 mag, and he can still shoot back for 10-20 seconds before he dies. No matter how fast you pull out your 44 mag, and even if you score direct hits in the heart, some bad guys can still shoot back. And if one of his bullets nicks an artery, you will probably die a few minutes after your opponent.
By definition, if you pull a gun, you are in a situation where you may die no matter how good your ninja skills. Unless, of course, you are the lead in a James Bod film. Accept it.
So think shoot and move, or cover and shoot. Or shoot and move to cover, if you can. Try to avoid places and times likely to cause you trouble, and try to take at least one guy with you. If 8 guys rush you from 20 feet, you'll do well to get off one shot anyways. That leaves 7 guys time to kill you. Guess it sucks to be you that day. Accept that fact and try to take one with you.
Then be glad that most folks go their entire lives without needing to pull a gun. And hope that if you ever DO need to pull a gun, it won't be against 30 zombies, or an organized gang of drug dealers trying to take you out at home. Because if serious people are willing to die to kill you, you will die. No amount of training or equipment, short of the resources of a moderate or larger government, can change that.
Spend most of your time living life, and making it something worthwhile to have. If you encounter a large number of truly determined bad guys, make sure you leave life with good memories.
November 12th, 2011 07:21 AM
I guess that I don't get the idea that you are presenting. What I think MitchellCT was saying is to keep on progressing and not worry about what good enough accuracy is. I totally agree with anything I do in life to always push myelf to be better. There is alway room to improve, you are never good enough. IMHO it is your duty as a CCH to train as much a posible which is dependent on that persons recources and time available.
Originally Posted by bsms
1) He never said that you had to train for hours a day.
2) He also never said to take time away from your responibilities to your family to dry fire.
3) As to the simunition training I have to totally disagree. I conduct this type of training several times a year and it has many advantages that have furthered my training and ability to have more survivability and lethality in stresssful situations.
4) I agree that there are some situations that you will just end up dead no matter how well you are trained. But, that is not an excuse not to train hard and frequently.
5) Good advice!
6) As far as people willingy to die to kill you, that does not always grant them success. It certainly helps in certain situations but does not ensure that you will die by any means. What if your will to live is stronger than their will to die?
7) Well said!
November 12th, 2011 10:27 AM
"What I think MitchellCT was saying is to keep on progressing and not worry about what good enough accuracy is. I totally agree with anything I do in life to always push myelf to be better. "
My point is that pushing yourself very hard to become an expert at drawing a gun and getting off a fast first shot is fine - as a hobby. It has less value as a way of keeping yourself & your family safe. And by the time you are doing force on force training, you've left self-defense behind and are doing it for the fun or for the challenge.
Hobbies are fine. Everyone should have one. The money I'm spending now on hay for the horses would buy me quite a few bullets, but it is my hobby.
Some realistic training has a LOT of value. Can you pull your gun without snagging on your clothes? If a woman plans on purse carry, can she get to her gun in less than 60 seconds? Can you accurately point your gun, and what does that take? I cannot do it well from hip level, and raising my arm is required from just about anything more than an arm's length shot. Otherwise, my first shot is 50:50 tops - so I plan on raising my arm, room permitting, and taking a half-second to stabilize the gun. Not to use my sights fully, but it takes a finite time to stabilize the gun when I raise it. I know because I've practiced it. And it costs me 1/4-1/2 second more, and I've decided I'm willing to take that extra time to make my first shot count. Others may disagree, and that is fine - but I've TRIED the actions to get off a good first shot, and determined what I can do.
I carry cross draw because my right side is stiff from an injury (caused from riding horses) and I find it awkward to draw a gun from where most people carry one. I don't carry a semi because I love shooting revolvers, and I want to feel instinctive with a gun. That takes a fair bit of shooting - not 1000/week, but a heck of a lot more than 50 rounds once every 4 years!
But you rapidly hit a point where trying to get better and better at harder and harder scenarios just isn't going to improve your safety while leaving Wal-Mart and going to your car. If you ever walked thru your dark house with an unloaded gun, and tried taking shots at imagined bad guys, you will learn very fast and very finally that you cannot target practice in pitch black with normal sights. So you buy some night lights and also start practicing at times getting a shot without using your sights.
But if your hobby takes you farther, make sure it doesn't teach you the wrong lesson. Service rounds do NOT suck. Having no gun when you need one sucks, but 9mm ball ammo will penetrate, and most 9mm guns offer you the option of taking 2 shots instead of one with a 357/44. There was a thread here some time back asking for any scientific data indicating caliber has any impact. For some of the smaller rounds, the answer is yes. Low penetration means a significantly lower chance of hitting something vital. But once you get to the 9mm/38+P range, there seems to be no serious evidence. I like a high-powered 44 special, or a 357 when saving weight, but my normal carry gun is 37 oz because it is what I shoot well with.
My aunt is in her late 70s. A couple of winters ago, her 8 lb dog went nuts at 10PM. She felt uncomfortable, so she grabbed a WW2-era 38 and opened the door. Yes, she now knows not to open the door. The guy at her screen door was a foot taller than her and wearing a ski mask over his face. She stepped back, raised and cocked the gun, and said, "Run!" He did. He did not argue caliber, he did not smash thru the screen door to try to overpower her, etc. Like the time I encountered 8 guys in the desert and I had a 6-shot .22, no one got bold and brave and decided to win at any cost.
That was the first self-defense encounter she had in her 78 years. I had one 30 years ago, and none since. Hopefully I never will have another. And yes, having never thought about it before, she learned a few things. Don't open doors, and don't cock the gun unless you are ready to shoot (practice DA or change your pointing approach). Listen to your instincts. She had never taken a gun with her to the door before...
But for DEFENSE, the questions are pretty simple for most folks.
Do you have a gun? Is it loaded?
Can you get to it quickly? Can you draw it in the clothes you are wearing?
Can you point it, without relying on the sights, and put a shot into a man's chest at 10 feet or less? Can you point a gun at a man? (I add the last because I once tried pulling a gun on myself facing the mirror, and I found it quite different psychologically) Have you prepared yourself mentally to shoot a man? Can you move after a shot, or are you prepared to keep shooting if, like my aunt, you are in a narrow hall?
At that level, you are already at a point far in advance of 99% of the people. If you want to go farther, that is fine.
My oldest daughter was in the USMC. She's quite good with a rifle, but marginal with a handgun. Nor does she have the drive to go fire thousands of rounds. But she needs to carry, so she has practiced enough to figure out how to carry a gun with acceptable draw time (in her opinion). She learned she dislikes the SP101/J-frame guns, so she carries either a 10 shot 22 or a 686+. She shoots 50-100 rounds a month.
She is far better prepared than the vast majority of Americans. She is not ready to handle force on force, but that isn't her purpose. OTOH, she is probably better qualified than our local SWAT team. I'll close with a link to YouTube video taken by the team, when they shot a homeowner over 20 times while serving a search warrant. They also missed 50 times, while showing buffoonery that I think disqualifies them from carrying anything stronger than a throwing star from their ninja bags. There is no substitute for a mind when guns are involved...
Jose Guerena SWAT Raid Video From Helmet Cam - YouTube
November 12th, 2011 10:36 AM
In a combat situation the front sight is all you need to concentrate on. At close distances the bullet will go where the front sight is pointed. Many of the tactical schools teach front sight shooting. This is how you get shot placement in a situation. Circumstances do vary but some kind of shot placement is always a wise thing. You don't want to go off half cocked and throw bullets all over the place putting an innocent person in danger. As the old saying goes, better a hit with a 32 than a miss with a 44 !
Outlaw Guns and Only Outlaws Will Have Guns !!
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