Shot placement ??? - Page 4

Shot placement ???

This is a discussion on Shot placement ??? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'll be the first to admit I have no lethal encounter experience. Nor do I want to get into those situations. What I know is ...

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Thread: Shot placement ???

  1. #46
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    I'll be the first to admit I have no lethal encounter experience. Nor do I want to get into those situations.

    What I know is how I respond under stress, in times of real crisis (former EMT/Shock Trauma). I know how I function after an andrenaline dump. I know when I'm scared to death and how to work thru it. In short I know myself. My philsophy is to make a reasonable effort to practice. When it comes down to it, just pull it out and go to work. Nothing fancy, just get the job done and make it home at the end of the day.
    Last edited by ctr; November 13th, 2011 at 11:12 AM.
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  2. #47
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    Lightbulb Zig

    My late, great friend, Bob “Zig” Hensley was an expert on this subject. I say “expert” because he has been shot on seven different occasions (sometimes multiple times).

    I used to tease him and tell folks he “Zigged when he should have Zagged” and thus the nickname.

    You probably remember Zig best from the movie “Hunt for Red October”. Remember the part where Alex Baldwin jumped out of the helicopter down to the sub? Well that wasn’t the actor, that was Zig. Seems they wouldn’t let a Hollywood stunt man jump out of a Navy chopper, it had to be a Navy Diver. So, Big Zig got the call. “That was my 2.5 seconds of fame!” he used to laugh and say.

    ZIG's AR.jpg DSC02808.jpg
    Zig with a Tack Driver he built...and a 100 yd. group!

    Zig was a real Patriot and an unsung war hero. A little known fact: He was once held prisoner by the Iraqi Army for a few days.

    “They beat the hell out of me and tortured me. I would have much rather they stripped me naked and put women's underwear on my head. Heck, I might even have liked that!” He told me this as we were watching the news about the Gitmo incident.

    Zig was 100% disabled at the time of his recent death. And for the record, Zig was shot with the following calibers:

    9mm, .357 Magnum, AK-47, .12 Gage 00 Buckshot, and .25acp. The latter was two shots in the mouth at contact distance.

    Zig and I have had some long talks about caliber choices and stopping power over the years. That said, we concluded that it all comes down to three things:

    1. Shot placement
    2. Shot placement
    3. Shot placement

    Stay safe,

    D.R. Middlebrooks
    Tactical Shooting Academy

    P.S.- Zig also had a catastrophic failure with his issued Beretta over in the Sand Box one time during a battle, but that’s a whole other story…
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    Last edited by DRM; November 13th, 2011 at 04:06 PM.
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  3. #48
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    Thanks DR. For those of you that don't know, ZIG was my Uncle and best friend. Those are all true stories and The PS story is how he got his service call name "shape".
    Its nice to read stories of such a great man and to know how well known he was in the shooting world.
    Fair winds and following seas my friend. RIP Big ZIG
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post

    Spend most of your time living life, and making it something worthwhile to have.

    Sounds like wisdom to me.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockymtnnut View Post
    I have come to the conclusion that too much emphasis is placed on shot placement... work on speed then accuracy will follow.
    People who "work on speed" before they learn accuracy have a tendency to shoot themselves in the leg.

    Regards,
    Jim

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    "What I think MitchellCT was saying is to keep on progressing and not worry about what good enough accuracy is. I totally agree with anything I do in life to always push myelf to be better. "

    My point is that pushing yourself very hard to become an expert at drawing a gun and getting off a fast first shot is fine - as a hobby. It has less value as a way of keeping yourself & your family safe. And by the time you are doing force on force training, you've left self-defense behind and are doing it for the fun or for the challenge.

    Hobbies are fine. Everyone should have one. The money I'm spending now on hay for the horses would buy me quite a few bullets, but it is my hobby.

    Some realistic training has a LOT of value. Can you pull your gun without snagging on your clothes? If a woman plans on purse carry, can she get to her gun in less than 60 seconds? Can you accurately point your gun, and what does that take? I cannot do it well from hip level, and raising my arm is required from just about anything more than an arm's length shot. Otherwise, my first shot is 50:50 tops - so I plan on raising my arm, room permitting, and taking a half-second to stabilize the gun. Not to use my sights fully, but it takes a finite time to stabilize the gun when I raise it. I know because I've practiced it. And it costs me 1/4-1/2 second more, and I've decided I'm willing to take that extra time to make my first shot count. Others may disagree, and that is fine - but I've TRIED the actions to get off a good first shot, and determined what I can do.

    I carry cross draw because my right side is stiff from an injury (caused from riding horses) and I find it awkward to draw a gun from where most people carry one. I don't carry a semi because I love shooting revolvers, and I want to feel instinctive with a gun. That takes a fair bit of shooting - not 1000/week, but a heck of a lot more than 50 rounds once every 4 years!

    But you rapidly hit a point where trying to get better and better at harder and harder scenarios just isn't going to improve your safety while leaving Wal-Mart and going to your car. If you ever walked thru your dark house with an unloaded gun, and tried taking shots at imagined bad guys, you will learn very fast and very finally that you cannot target practice in pitch black with normal sights. So you buy some night lights and also start practicing at times getting a shot without using your sights.

    But if your hobby takes you farther, make sure it doesn't teach you the wrong lesson. Service rounds do NOT suck. Having no gun when you need one sucks, but 9mm ball ammo will penetrate, and most 9mm guns offer you the option of taking 2 shots instead of one with a 357/44. There was a thread here some time back asking for any scientific data indicating caliber has any impact. For some of the smaller rounds, the answer is yes. Low penetration means a significantly lower chance of hitting something vital. But once you get to the 9mm/38+P range, there seems to be no serious evidence. I like a high-powered 44 special, or a 357 when saving weight, but my normal carry gun is 37 oz because it is what I shoot well with.

    My aunt is in her late 70s. A couple of winters ago, her 8 lb dog went nuts at 10PM. She felt uncomfortable, so she grabbed a WW2-era 38 and opened the door. Yes, she now knows not to open the door. The guy at her screen door was a foot taller than her and wearing a ski mask over his face. She stepped back, raised and cocked the gun, and said, "Run!" He did. He did not argue caliber, he did not smash thru the screen door to try to overpower her, etc. Like the time I encountered 8 guys in the desert and I had a 6-shot .22, no one got bold and brave and decided to win at any cost.

    That was the first self-defense encounter she had in her 78 years. I had one 30 years ago, and none since. Hopefully I never will have another. And yes, having never thought about it before, she learned a few things. Don't open doors, and don't cock the gun unless you are ready to shoot (practice DA or change your pointing approach). Listen to your instincts. She had never taken a gun with her to the door before...

    But for DEFENSE, the questions are pretty simple for most folks.

    Do you have a gun? Is it loaded?

    Can you get to it quickly? Can you draw it in the clothes you are wearing?

    Can you point it, without relying on the sights, and put a shot into a man's chest at 10 feet or less? Can you point a gun at a man? (I add the last because I once tried pulling a gun on myself facing the mirror, and I found it quite different psychologically) Have you prepared yourself mentally to shoot a man? Can you move after a shot, or are you prepared to keep shooting if, like my aunt, you are in a narrow hall?

    At that level, you are already at a point far in advance of 99% of the people. If you want to go farther, that is fine.

    My oldest daughter was in the USMC. She's quite good with a rifle, but marginal with a handgun. Nor does she have the drive to go fire thousands of rounds. But she needs to carry, so she has practiced enough to figure out how to carry a gun with acceptable draw time (in her opinion). She learned she dislikes the SP101/J-frame guns, so she carries either a 10 shot 22 or a 686+. She shoots 50-100 rounds a month.

    She is far better prepared than the vast majority of Americans. She is not ready to handle force on force, but that isn't her purpose. OTOH, she is probably better qualified than our local SWAT team. I'll close with a link to YouTube video taken by the team, when they shot a homeowner over 20 times while serving a search warrant. They also missed 50 times, while showing buffoonery that I think disqualifies them from carrying anything stronger than a throwing star from their ninja bags. There is no substitute for a mind when guns are involved...

    Jose Guerena SWAT Raid Video From Helmet Cam - YouTube
    Wow.

    I really don't know what to say...

    So, you just keep on keepin on the way you keep on, and I'll do my thing with my 5 minutes of dry fire every day and occasionally gettin to classes when I can.

    Good luck to you, and I hope you are as good as you think you are, because I know I've got a long way to improve...

  7. #52
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by glockrocker View Post
    Is it better to have three or four shots in a 6-8 inch centermass group,or having them all in a 1-2 inch group...
    The key to shot placement is balancing SPEED with ACCURACY.

    To achieve this, I tell my students to practice shooting groups. FIST SIZE groups. No matter what the distance, try to shoot fist size groups when training.

    It's better to get a hit on target fast,then follow up if needed,small groups are taught for self control of the sights,trigger,grip of the gun.
    Shoot'em to the ground first (or shoot until the threat is no longer a threat, which ever comes first) then assess...

    Practice ain't the same as race day. Under stress, your only going to be about as half as good as you think you are, if you're lucky. Train smart, shoot smart.

    Stay safe,

    D.R.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Wow.

    I really don't know what to say...

    So, you just keep on keepin on the way you keep on, and I'll do my thing with my 5 minutes of dry fire every day and occasionally gettin to classes when I can.

    Good luck to you, and I hope you are as good as you think you are, because I know I've got a long way to improve...
    Amen to that....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  9. #54
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    For most of us, I would think, the adrenaline will be going so fast that we will be very lucky to hit the BG anywhere when the SHTF. And then we will exit as fast as we can having made sure the threat is over. But let's hope we never have to find out!
    Chicken Little? Who the heck is Chicken Little? And what does she know, anyway?!

    " The will of the majority, the natural law of every society, is the only sure guardian of the rights of man." Thomas Jefferson.

  10. #55
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    Lightbulb

    AMEN!! We don't have to stay there and shoot it out like John Wayne or Dirty Harry.

    First options:

    1. AVOID
    2. DISENGAGE
    3. RETREAT

    I think Ken Hackathorn said it best:

    "You'll not rise to the occasion, you'll default to your level of training."
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
    (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states). - D. Stanhope

    D.R. Middlebrooks - Pro Shooting Coach & Custom Gunsmith
    Tactical Shooting Academy & Custom Shop
    www.TacticalShooting.com

  11. #56
    Member Array Missourian's Avatar
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    I see it like this if u don't believe in keep n your shots accurate as possible what would u think if one of your possible many stray rounds strikes the neibor kid across the street or a bystander a block away may b a loved one in the next room in your house just something to consider aim to shoot b able to shoot what u aim at just my two cents on it

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