Shot placement ???

This is a discussion on Shot placement ??? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; First let me start off by saying marksmanship should never be overlooked. After interviewing people who have been in combat situations they're pretty unanimous that ...

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    Member Array rockymtnnut's Avatar
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    Shot placement ???

    First let me start off by saying marksmanship should never be overlooked. After interviewing people who have been in combat situations they're pretty unanimous that when the crapp hits the fan there was no shot placement as we know it. Things happened so fast that it was point shooting and creating distance. Just hit the Target with a pint of pie plate. Their reply for an ideal firearm was reliable, simple,and hard hitting . my training that I have taken concurs with this . One fello marine told me if my groups are small I need to speed up in a combat training situation. So my question is shot placement for real or are we just dreaming ?

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    RKM
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    I think it's for real, but I think many people are dreaming that they're going to make a 1" group into a BG's chest. It rarely happens that way. I like to practice point shooting, because using your sights in a self defense situation is unlikely, as they're mostly all 7 yards or closer.

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    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    Poor training habits will not improve real world results.
    AZ Hawk, sgb, helderberg and 2 others like this.
    "To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqgrill View Post
    Poor training habits will not improve real world results.
    Much said in a mouthful of vague... not dissing you BBQ, there's a whole lot said in those few words.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Shot placement/accuracy in a defensive training is generally regarded as about a hand span.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

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    Member Array rockymtnnut's Avatar
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    If you get on you tube and search gun fights one thing is for sure it happens fast and chaotic. Nothing seemed to be well placed shots.
    My uncle said when he was in chu Li veitnam in a fire fight all fine motor skills go out the window.
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    Train how you'll fight, because you'll fight how you trained.

    Training is bloodless combat. Combat is bloody training.

    Very old words of wisdom. If you were in the Corps, you've heard them before.

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    From what I have read most incidents are at close range where point shooting is what is likely to happen. That being said it is possible that you could be in
    a non typical situation and require accurate shot placement from a greater distance to stop a threat. I think that it is more important to practice the draw because
    in an oh heck situation you are more likely to have problems accessing and presenting your gun than hitting target at very close range once gun is out.

    To the op's question I hope shot placement is for real if that is what is required in whatever situation I am in.
    Last edited by HotGuns; October 27th, 2011 at 09:41 PM. Reason: edited for language

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    At the end of the day, a poor shooter will shoot even worse under stress. If you can't hit a pie plate to begin with then you would be lucking to hit an extra large pizza dish.
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    Okay, if we define "Combat Accurate" as "Any hit that significantly decreases his ability to do you harm" rather than putting a diameter restriction on it, it makes more sense. If he has a knife and you hit him in the wrist or femur--that's good. Shot placement is critical because without it he has more chances to hurt you. But will you have the ability to do it? Only if you're innoculated against the stress of the moment. If you practice getting off the X and firing as you would with gross motor skill only, that's probably what you'll do in a critical dynamic incident. If you practice with Weaver, breath and trigger control, and shooting for 1" groups at 25 yards, you're going to be in trouble. Everything will be new, nothing will be normal, and you'll be trying to figure things out as you go.
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    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK Dan View Post
    Okay, if we define "Combat Accurate" as "Any hit that significantly decreases his ability to do you harm" rather than putting a diameter restriction on it, it makes more sense. If he has a knife and you hit him in the wrist or femur--that's good. Shot placement is critical because without it he has more chances to hurt you. But will you have the ability to do it? Only if you're innoculated against the stress of the moment. If you practice getting off the X and firing as you would with gross motor skill only, that's probably what you'll do in a critical dynamic incident. If you practice with Weaver, breath and trigger control, and shooting for 1" groups at 25 yards, you're going to be in trouble. Everything will be new, nothing will be normal, and you'll be trying to figure things out as you go.
    Though it is intended as a game; IDPA provides for the type of practice you describe.
    "To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT

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    Member Array rockymtnnut's Avatar
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    I have come to the conclusion that too much emphasis is placed on shot placement . When we shoot at paper targets there is no stress involved. when training I often see a very slow draw, a very slow first shot and very slow subsequent shots. and usually good instructors respond if you were fighting a paper bad man he would be dead but if you were fighting a bad guy with a heartbeat he probly would have shot you first . work on speed then accuracy will follow.

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    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockymtnnut View Post
    I have come to the conclusion that too much emphasis is placed on shot placement . When we shoot at paper targets there is no stress involved. when training I often see a very slow draw, a very slow first shot and very slow subsequent shots. and usually good instructors respond if you were fighting a paper bad man he would be dead but if you were fighting a bad guy with a heartbeat he probly would have shot you first . work on speed then accuracy will follow.
    Sure everyone know that a fast miss will win a gunfight. /sarcasm. That said there has to be a balance but, foundation of and fundamentals shooting skills are paramount; I remember the lessons of USMCRD PISC.
    "To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT

    Never argue with an idiot - they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockymtnnut View Post
    I have come to the conclusion that too much emphasis is placed on shot placement . When we shoot at paper targets there is no stress involved. when training I often see a very slow draw, a very slow first shot and very slow subsequent shots. and usually good instructors respond if you were fighting a paper bad man he would be dead but if you were fighting a bad guy with a heartbeat he probly would have shot you first . work on speed then accuracy will follow.
    Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.
    TheGiant likes this.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

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    I've only pulled a gun once, and it turned out I didn't need to shoot - although I was a second away from firing. At the first sight of the gun, the guys decided to stop forward motion, and almost immediately began to move back - so there wasn't a need to shoot.

    That said, I felt no stress. I didn't think about what a DA would say. My theory is that if you're thinking about the law, you aren't REALLY in that dangerous a situation yet. But my heart wasn't pounding. I didn't start squealing like a teen girl at a rock concert.

    It kind of felt like being on a horse that is bolting...just an "Oh damn, I'd rather not be here!" feeling. If they had attacked, the closest was going to be shot in the face at very close range with a .22 - which is what I had on me while out hiking 30 years ago.

    I think too many people train to panic. Some do, some don't, but I believe that if you assume you will, then you will.

    I've been shot at (badly) in combat. I've been shot at (badly, but closer) by guys shooting at sound during hunting season. I've been in a couple of car wrecks, none bad and none my fault, where I could see it developing and knew I couldn't change things. It sucks to be there, but panic ain't going to help.

    I practice drawing with an empty gun, because you can learn a lot about how screwed your holster or clothing can make you. With a loaded gun, I practice going from low ready one handed to firing one shot.

    I don't plan to stand there and take another shot. One shot, MOVE! After all, the BG gets a vote, and his vote may include shooting you - and if you stand like a rock, you are an easy target. Even if you hit the BG in the heart with a 44 mag, he still has the option of shooting back for another 10 seconds or more (FBI source).

    If I'm shooting in self-defense, a huge part of my defense is moving. So that is what I practice. One shot, move. Assess. One shot, move. Assess.

    I've come to the conclusion there is too LITTLE emphasis on shot placement. Instead, folks plan to panic and unload a lot of rounds, hoping some hit.

    If you have time to fire 15 rounds, you have time to take one excellent shot. If you have time to empty a 5-shot revolver, you have time to take one pretty good shot - particularly at close range. So knock off the "panic/shoot" stuff. Man up. It is like a car wreck. If your life is threatened, for real, then there is a good chance you're going to die regardless of what you do - so take the BG with you. Calm down, take an extra 0.5 second to fire one very good shot, then MOVE!

    My normal carry gun is now a 7-shot revolver instead of a 5-shot, because I like it more and shoot it more and feel comfortable with it. But if I'm ever in a situation where I fire 7 shots, I've already screwed the pooch.

    Just IMHO. YMMV.
    Majorlk, RugerMike, Fitch and 4 others like this.

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