This is a discussion on "Snake Slayer" from Bond Arms within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have a 3.5" Snake Slayer. It will put all five 000 buckshot in a 10" circle at 15'. In a study titled "The Armed ...
I have a 3.5" Snake Slayer. It will put all five 000 buckshot in a 10" circle at 15'. In a study titled "The Armed Citizen – A Five Year Analysis", the results showed that the average medium shots fired for home invasion was 2. Also, the range of most incidents was just in excess of touching distance. Most defenders made the shoot decision shortly before the criminal comes within arm's length. The vast majority of the invaders ended up on the losing end.
Two shots from my Snake Slayer lands ten 38sp sized projectiles in a 10" circle. Two shots from a standard handgun lands two projectiles. Now, I would never suggest that because of this the Snake Slayer is the best choice for everyone. But there is no doubt, in real life scenarios backed up by significant data, the .410 Bond would be a reasonable consideration. There is a very telling car jacking self defense post that tells of the demise of the carjacker due to the quick thinking and reaction of the driver. He used his Bond that he kept loaded with .410 buckshot.
A pair of 3" .410 buckshot is a scary thing. And it does go "BOOOOOOOOM"!
Not for everyone. There are lots of good choices out there.
Pain is the best teacher,but nobody wants to go to his class.
When the past smothers the present, there is only desperation. When the future absorbs the present, life stands still. In either case a decision must be made because you only live now and you are only what you are now.
I will fully align with those who've had real experience with a Bond .45/.410 derringer and came to realize just how awesomely impressive it is for use as a very practical, easy to conceal carry and extremely effective close-range defensive weapon for "two-legged snakes". Even though I've taken a number of lives (and bullets in return) from past military and LE combat, my opinion still has no greater merit than anyone else's because decisions about what particular weapon, caliber or brand one chooses to carry, is most comfortable with, and can proficiently shoot will always be strictly a matter of personal preference. However, those who poo-poo a Bond as either insignificant, ineffective or impractical for critical self-defense are just as unenlightened as I was about six months ago when I also considered it more of a toy, novelty or expensive paperweight when I first saw one.
My attitude about a Bond derringer quickly changed a few months ago when I was practicing at a local firing range next to a guy who had one. I started being impressed when he was popping the 10-ring at 25 feet with .45 Colts as I was with my 1911 .45ACP. When I struck up a conversation with him, he loaded up a couple of 3" .410, 5-pellet 000-buckshot shells and suggested we move up to 12 feet and both respectively fire for effect - geeeze, my single .45 hole looked pretty lame compared to the tennis-ball sized hole he blew through his target. He let me run a few rounds through it just to make me feel more envious; and while the recoil was significant, it was very manageable, and the accuracy was spot-on. After that, I started doing some serious research into both the Bond derringer and the advanced stopping power of .410 buckshot (and other specialty self defense combo-loads) at close-range as compared to a single large caliber bullet - very impressive.
I was also wondering about Bond's own admission that the half-inch or so of rifling at the end of the barrels may not allow a .45 bullet to fully stabilize; but then I watched a few online videos of Bob Munden making a 65-yard balloon shot...
Bob Munden Hits the target from 65 yards - YouTube
No, I'm not a shootist like Bob Munden, but even an expert is only as accurate as what he/she is shooting; and other videos show him drilling a poker chip at 25 feet. So, whether the bullets may or may not have been stabiilized upon leaving the short barrel, they found their mark dead-center. Then I asked myself, even if a 250 grain .45 slug was tumbling with that kind of accuracy, the buzz-saw effect of the wound it would create could easily be much worse than expansion of its hollow point.
However, my primary focus was upon the extreme close-range effectiveness of the new .410 buckshot and personal-defense combo-loads as they have been researched and tested over the past few years. The many different test results are impressive enough that they've spawned a whole new breed of wheel-guns and derringers to accommodate them; but, since the Bond is so totally different from any other derringer (regardless of price), it's pretty much the only derringer that's been tested along with the numerous, much larger, revolvers - including the Tarus "Judge". I was even more impressed that, in many instances, the 3.5" barrel Bond held a generally tighter buckshot pattern than many of the longer-barrel wheel guns with a number of the different types and brands of loads.
There is also the question raised by many about the Bond being a relatively short-range weapon; but, as a few have already mentioned, at what range does an attacker have to be when one (and the court system) consider justified in using deadly force?? I've sat through way too many court cases when serious questions were raised (and criminal prosecution pursued) when an alleged self-defense shooting took place when the perp was more than 15 feet away and not already in the process of pointing a weapon or shooting at the defender or someone else. I can also promise serious court problems when a "self defense" shooter was armed with a high-capacity weapon and carrying a number of extra magazines because the instant flow of prosecutor innuendo will start trying to paint a picture of possible premeditation by a Rambo-type just looking for a chance to be a hero and/or initiate a lengthy combat-style gun-battle instead of only being adequately armed for critical close-range self-defense when there were no other alternatives or options of avoidance.
There's also the very frequent, many times unfortunate, civil and/or criminal liability scenario of critical self-defense when there's no allowable time or distance to avoid missed or fully penetrating rounds from taking out an innocent bystander; but a hand-held shotgun (wheel-type or derringer) can maximize close range effectiveness while minimizing accidental collateral damage.
Even though I'm handgun-poor with a number of very fine pistols that I frequently carry, I simply couldn't continue ignoring such an effective asset and brought home a Bond "C2K" .45/.410 last Friday.
After doing some extensive firing and testing this weekend, I am only more impressed with the Bond, its accuracy, and the awesome close-range effect of the .410 self-defense rounds (.45 long Colt ain't bad either). I will not mind any laughter at all after making a personal assessment; and while I will continue carrying my trusty Colt Mustang as a BUG (as done for 25 years), this combat experienced old vet is going "new school" and will be carrying my Bond sawed-off shottie as primary until something better comes along.
Again, to each his/her own with decisions about what to carry as personal self-defense, and I've made mine.
Do not judge a weapon based on what Bob Munden can do with it. He is in a whole different class, all by himself. I watch his shows on "Impossible Shots" a he takes out
baloons at 200 yards from a snub nosed 38 special, and yes I know he some get help from the bullet fragmenting off the steel plate behind the baloons. But you still have to hold high enough to hit the plate, while adjusting for any wind and direction.
I would love to shoot with him even for a hour in Butte, I know I would learn a lot and improve my shooting, but no where up to hi level.
Is Bob Munden ever on the forum???
let’s take a look at some statistics. The FBI in the Uniform Crime Report (UCR) tells us that most shootings - about 80% - occur in low or reduced light. Most shootings involving police officers and civilian concealed carry permit holders happen with average distance at three feet!! THREE FEET!! So accuracy at 25 feet may be a mute point... I'd have one of these for a deep BUG, but I just don't have the spare money to spend on a weapon that only holds two rounds...the UCR goes on to report that In most police shooting the average number of rounds fired is ten. Keep in mind that most police agencies have a magazine capacity of 15 rounds. Of those ten
rounds only two hit the subject that means an 80% miss rate. They say that most gun fights last about 10-15 seconds, so a reload of a single or double shot weapon ain't gonna happen...I'll still get one someday if it ever reaches the top of my long and ever growing buy list!
I guess the one question that has not been addressed is the ballistics of the .410 buckshot out of a short barrel. Sure your getting 5 holes but what kind of penetration. Does anyone know what speed the buckshot is traveling, compared to a 38 or 9mm?
Eaglebeak, Glad you tried one out. I carry mine as shown in the car with 3" 000 Buckshot and 2.5" PDX1.
Like you I have seen about everything over the past 65 years and have shot and own dozens of guns.
The Bond Derringer impressed me as the one weapon I would want most at close quarters combat and the
Winchester PDX1 Defensive load is hard to beat.
Winchester .410 Ammuntion Results
I am glad you had an opportunity to shoot it. I too was a convert.
Thanks fiddlers, that's the same comparative link I found that shows actual pattern results of different brands and types of .410 loads in different guns with different barrel lengths.
There's been good questions raised about actual ballistics data in the "real world" since it's pretty obvious that stated "manufacturer's ballistics data" is probably the best they achieved from a long barrel but would be far less in a short barrelled gun of any type.
For what it's worth, I dragged out the chronograph and fired a few rounds of what I'm carrying to get some idea of what to expect in the real world from a 3.5" barrel.
Federal 3" 000-buckshot w/ (5) 68-gr. pellets (340 gr. total): 650fps (4" spread @ 10 feet)
Winchester 3" 000-buckshot (5) 68-gr. pellets (340 gr. total): 623fps (2.5" spread @ 10 feet)
Fiocchi 250-grain JHP .45 Long Colt: 780fps
Once again, my personal objective is to stop and incapacitate the threat if possible with the first shot where (with a head or crotch shot) penetration is not as much an issue as delivering a lot of incapacitating/maiming blunt-force trauma over a wide area whether it's a kill or not. If a close-range load of 000-buckshot to the face or crotch of an attacker doesn't completely stop the threat, the next .45 long Colt round most certainly will do what's necessary. If anything else may be needed, out comes the .380 Mustang BUG.
I've actually been looking at a Bond Arms derringer as a BUG or to fill other odd jobs. I would not personally carry this as a main gun despite what all the statistics say. I really wouldn't want to be the one non-stereotypical case and end up facing four guys on the side of the road at 11pm next to my broken down truck.
I am looking at the .45ACP version. From what I've read the recoil is milder than the .38+P/.357 round, but you still have two good sized rounds to hit your target with. With only two ready rounds I want as much power as I can control, where I prefer 9mm+P for my main sidearm since it holds seventeen total rounds.
"It is your evil that will be sought by us. With every breath we will hunt them down. Each day we will spill their blood, until it rains down from the skies. Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles that every man from every faith can embrace." -McManus twins Boondock Saints
Well you guys that have to use a heavy 2 shooter might as well use the best ammo, check this out. It will make the 45lc look lame.
Last edited by hardluk1; December 7th, 2011 at 08:56 PM.
Sorry but I've fired my brother in laws Snake slayer with both 45LC and 410's. Just too impractical despite having quality workmanship.
Too heavy for a small gun
How does the "Snake Slayer" compare in size and weight to say a LCP?
Glock 22, 27 Gen 4
Ruger SP101 .357mag
S&W 637 Airweight
Ruger Single Six
Ruger Blackhawk Bisley 45 Colt
Mossberg 835 Grand Slam
If you're looking for the least weight and 6+1 ammo capacity, then stay with an LCP and don't even think about a Bond.
Even though the Bond C2K is comparable in general height and length to an LCP, its grip is much wider.
LCP has an unloaded weight of only 9.5 ounces - and even the shortest barrel Bond weighs almost twice as much.
In the Bond .45/.410 models:
The "Snake Slayer" has 4.5" barrels and has an unloaded weight of 23.5 ounces
The "C2K" has 3.5" barrels and has an unloaded weight of 21.0 ounces
These are relatively small, but extremely heavy hand-cannons which are not for everybody in any way whatsoever.
Twice the weight of an LCP, and only two shots - but the difference in preference would be the difference in (6) 90-grain .380 bullets at close range or (2) 250 grain .45Colt+p bullets (if one chooses that over two 340 grain loads of 000-buckshot).
You get five 38 special sized projectiles in a single shot with my snake slayer (3.5"). Anyone eperiencing painful recoil is simply holding it wrong. I went out the other day and shot a dozen 3 inch 410 000 buckshot shells and I could have shot a dozen more. The recoil thing is overblown. There will be scenarios were having two trigger pulls sending 10 projectiles would be the best choice. There are other scenarios where havig ten individual shots would be best For what its worth most published statistics show 2 shots is the average in a self defense scenario. Really its not that big it's not that heavy. It feels very compact in the driving holster. But I understand it's personal choice and if you don't like it you don't like it.
You snake slayer shooters, take a buddy with a pistol that there comforible carry'n and both of you at the call of a third person draw and fire at a chest sized target and see how many rounds a normal pistol shooter can get off before the first thumb cocked round is fired from your 410. I have done this several times with a buddy that had one for carry. I draw a kahr cw9 IWB he from a IWB and found i could allways get 2 shoots fired some times 3 on target before he could get off his first. Then the rest of 7 rounds of 9mm rounds before his second shot. He no longer use's the 410 for CC just on his property for snakes and critters. He now carries a xd sub compact 9mm and now he wipes up on me. Now if some one was to make them with a DA trigger??? But weight is an issue. Same weight as a glock 19 or 17.