small carry conceal handguns. 9mm or .380 , Why you carry one over the other ?

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Originally Posted by true grit

7 in of penetration is enough to hit the heart...

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not always true. I've been inside the body cavity of many a dead folk and sometimes you have several inches of fat and muscle before you even get to the sternum. Ad another 1/2-1" of bone and then you have more fat and muscle along with a layer of fascia to deal with. Oh yeah and unless you are shooting a naked person you have clothes to shoot through as well. Not picking on you TrueGrit, just the statement.

By the way, look around. Have you seen how fat people are these days? Gettin fatter too. Even the criminals.

In general, this whole debate is downright hilarious. Everytime it comes up it's the same argument. Personally, 9mm won't cut it so I carry a 357 mag as a BUG or primary in my "shorts or jeans and tennies". You ain't gonna bust me out either. I also carry a CCO 1911 in those same shorts, jeans and tennies and you won't bust me out in that either. Dress around the weapon.

Convenience vs......whatever the other side of the argument is. Hmmmm. Funny. I brought this lil shooter here cause it conveniently fits in this convenient lil wallet holster. Sorry. I don't sit on my guns. It's too INconvenient if I'm attacked while seated. Hope you are standing up or can really fool the random shooter that isn't simply standing there asking for your...wallet.

Here's what I take away from this argument the most. Folks who argue FOR the lil .380 seem to be trying to justify something. Is it the fact they feel stupid for being convinced its a fine and sufficient primary carry weapon when deep down they knew better? Is it to justify the outrageous amount of money they spent on a gun that gets shunned by many other CCers? Not to mention the ammo prices.

If I HAVE to decide whether or not to shoot FMJ, +P or Whatever because it is the best "choice" to get penetration, I have already lost.

Use logic here. If a bullet expands it is bigger. Better chance to hit something good past all that fat, muscle, bone and fascia. If it doesn't expand, less of a chance. Now, if the bullet I'm using can't get to the goodies if it expands, why use it??????? Use a bullet that will get there AND get there while expanded.

I can't help but think that many of the people that defend the .380 are sitting there knowing they are wrong, but won't admit it here because they have defended it for so long and have too much pride to do it. Pride can get you killed.

Jump on me mouse gunners. I got thick skin.

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Originally Posted by deadguy

not always true. I've been inside the body cavity of many a dead folk and sometimes you have several inches of fat and muscle before you even get to the sternum. Ad another 1/2-1" of bone and then you have more fat and muscle along with a layer of fascia to deal with. Oh yeah and unless you are shooting a naked person you have clothes to shoot through as well. Not picking on you TrueGrit, just the statement.

By the way, look around. Have you seen how fat people are these days? Gettin fatter too. Even the criminals.

In general, this whole debate is downright hilarious. Everytime it comes up it's the same argument. Personally, 9mm won't cut it so I carry a 357 mag as a BUG or primary in my "shorts or jeans and tennies". You ain't gonna bust me out either. I also carry a CCO 1911 in those same shorts, jeans and tennies and you won't bust me out in that either. Dress around the weapon.

Convenience vs......whatever the other side of the argument is. Hmmmm. Funny. I brought this lil shooter here cause it conveniently fits in this convenient lil wallet holster. Sorry. I don't sit on my guns. It's too INconvenient if I'm attacked while seated. Hope you are standing up or can really fool the random shooter that isn't simply standing there asking for your...wallet.

Here's what I take away from this argument the most. Folks who argue FOR the lil .380 seem to be trying to justify something. Is it the fact they feel stupid for being convinced its a fine and sufficient primary carry weapon when deep down they knew better? Is it to justify the outrageous amount of money they spent on a gun that gets shunned by many other CCers? Not to mention the ammo prices.

If I HAVE to decide whether or not to shoot FMJ, +P or Whatever because it is the best "choice" to get penetration, I have already lost.

Use logic here. If a bullet expands it is bigger. Better chance to hit something good past all that fat, muscle, bone and fascia. If it doesn't expand, less of a chance. Now, if the bullet I'm using can't get to the goodies if it expands, why use it??????? Use a bullet that will get there AND get there while expanded.

I can't help but think that many of the people that defend the .380 are sitting there knowing they are wrong, but won't admit it here because they have defended it for so long and have too much pride to do it. Pride can get you killed.

Jump on me mouse gunners. I got thick skin.

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shooting buddy of mine rented a Smartcar when his was in the shop. I asked him how the little car drove, and he replied: "Like shooting a .380....it'll get you there eventually, but you're not sure when."

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If I HAVE to decide whether or not to shoot FMJ, +P or Whatever because it is the best "choice" to get penetration, I have already lost.

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I agree with this statement, but not for the reason the writer intended.

The .380 is likely to be as effective as any other round in the sub-caliber class. Like the .22 or .25, it can and does kill people, but per the quote above, the object of carrying a defensive weapon is not to stack up bodies like so much cord wood. The purpose is to stop threats and save your life.

While the .38sp and 9mm are generally held to be the minimum caliber for a lethal defense, that does presume a worst-case scenario. Statistically, if you have to use your firearm in a defense situation, just pulling it out will solve 99 percent of your problems. Gary Kleck's stats actually put the number at something like 99.8 percent.

This is why you don't open your newspaper and see a story about a concealed weapon permit holder killing a bad guy every day. It happens, but not very often.

If you do pull your weapon and fire a round, most people will run away, dive under tables, hide behind cars, etc. Up to this point, the .380 will work as well as anything else. Really, it's only in the extremely rare event that a person is trying to kill you and is ignoring the bullets and walking straight into your gunfire that you want a bigger caliber. The "penetration" and "one-shot stop" arguments are more appropriate for law enforcement personnel.

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Originally Posted by shockwave

I agree with this statement, but not for the reason the writer intended.

The .380 is likely to be as effective as any other round in the sub-caliber class. Like the .22 or .25, it can and does kill people, but per the quote above, the object of carrying a defensive weapon is not to stack up bodies like so much cord wood. The purpose is to stop threats and save your life.

While the .38sp and 9mm are generally held to be the minimum caliber for a lethal defense, that does presume a worst-case scenario. Statistically, if you have to use your firearm in a defense situation, just pulling it out will solve 99 percent of your problems. Gary Kleck's stats actually put the number at something like 99.8 percent.

This is why you don't open your newspaper and see a story about a concealed weapon permit holder killing a bad guy every day. It happens, but not very often.

If you do pull your weapon and fire a round, most people will run away, dive under tables, hide behind cars, etc. Up to this point, the .380 will work as well as anything else. Really, it's only in the extremely rare event that a person is trying to kill you and is ignoring the bullets and walking straight into your gunfire that you want a bigger caliber. The "penetration" and "one-shot stop" arguments are more appropriate for law enforcement personnel.

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Until that 99.8% becomes 100%, I'll stick to carrying what gives me the best chance of expansion AND sufficient penetration.

I don't take chances by going in areas I KNOW are high crime, and I won't be hypocritical by taking the chance I won't be that .2%.

But hey, carry what you will.

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Originally Posted by deadguy

not always true. I've been inside the body cavity of many a dead folk and sometimes you have several inches of fat and muscle before you even get to the sternum. Ad another 1/2-1" of bone and then you have more fat and muscle along with a layer of fascia to deal with. Oh yeah and unless you are shooting a naked person you have clothes to shoot through as well. Not picking on you TrueGrit, just the statement.

By the way, look around. Have you seen how fat people are these days? Gettin fatter too. Even the criminals.

In general, this whole debate is downright hilarious. Everytime it comes up it's the same argument. Personally, 9mm won't cut it so I carry a 357 mag as a BUG or primary in my "shorts or jeans and tennies". You ain't gonna bust me out either. I also carry a CCO 1911 in those same shorts, jeans and tennies and you won't bust me out in that either. Dress around the weapon.

Convenience vs......whatever the other side of the argument is. Hmmmm. Funny. I brought this lil shooter here cause it conveniently fits in this convenient lil wallet holster. Sorry. I don't sit on my guns. It's too INconvenient if I'm attacked while seated. Hope you are standing up or can really fool the random shooter that isn't simply standing there asking for your...wallet.

Here's what I take away from this argument the most. Folks who argue FOR the lil .380 seem to be trying to justify something. Is it the fact they feel stupid for being convinced its a fine and sufficient primary carry weapon when deep down they knew better? Is it to justify the outrageous amount of money they spent on a gun that gets shunned by many other CCers? Not to mention the ammo prices.

If I HAVE to decide whether or not to shoot FMJ, +P or Whatever because it is the best "choice" to get penetration, I have already lost.

Use logic here. If a bullet expands it is bigger. Better chance to hit something good past all that fat, muscle, bone and fascia. If it doesn't expand, less of a chance. Now, if the bullet I'm using can't get to the goodies if it expands, why use it??????? Use a bullet that will get there AND get there while expanded.

I can't help but think that many of the people that defend the .380 are sitting there knowing they are wrong, but won't admit it here because they have defended it for so long and have too much pride to do it. Pride can get you killed.

Jump on me mouse gunners. I got thick skin.

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I appreciated your argument until you started insulting everyone who didn't agree with your point of view. My issue is, with the combination of my body stature and with the way I have to dress for a particular situation sometimes, it is impossible for me to conceal anything more than a small mouse gun. This is for ME. I wish I could carry one of my bigger guns all the time, but its impossible. In a perfect world, everyone would be able to carry the biggest gun possible with the most rounds. But this is NOT a perfect world. If it was, nobody would need guns because there would be no violence and bad people trying to hurt good ones. Some people have to sacrifice certain things. The argument I stand by in this is - a gun is better than no gun. Last I checked, a .380 is a gun, so it will do.

I'm not going to "jump on you" and I don't consider myself a "mousegunner." I don't have a collection of .380's and lurk on these forums searching out threads like this just so I can sneak my argument in. Like I said, I don't disagree with the facts in your argument. I think everyone is aware that there are many rounds that perform a great deal better than the .380. What I disagree with is the fact that they are "wrong" for choosing to carry this caliber for whatever the reason may be. I guess my response to you is that it is not stupidity or trying to justify anything (for most of us at least). It is more of being confident in the choices we have made for whatever the reason, and the fact that we are tired of being insulted for choosing something other than what has been the "norm" for a long time.

I feel that if there is a round that you have to load to unsafe pressures and rely on a "head shot (in a high stress situation) for it to be effective, then maybe you should think of something else to rely on to save your life. Maybe say..... 9mm or larger?

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Originally Posted by shockwave

The .380 is likely to be as effective as any other round in the sub-caliber class. Like the .22 or .25, it can and does kill people, but per the quote above, the object of carrying a defensive weapon is not to stack up bodies like so much cord wood. The purpose is to stop threats and save your life.

While the .38sp and 9mm are generally held to be the minimum caliber for a lethal defense, that does presume a worst-case scenario. Statistically, if you have to use your firearm in a defense situation, just pulling it out will solve 99 percent of your problems. Gary Kleck's stats actually put the number at something like 99.8 percent.

This is why you don't open your newspaper and see a story about a concealed weapon permit holder killing a bad guy every day. It happens, but not very often.

If you do pull your weapon and fire a round, most people will run away, dive under tables, hide behind cars, etc. Up to this point, the .380 will work as well as anything else. Really, it's only in the extremely rare event that a person is trying to kill you and is ignoring the bullets and walking straight into your gunfire that you want a bigger caliber. The "penetration" and "one-shot stop" arguments are more appropriate for law enforcement personnel.

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This is a VERY VERY important post. It should be made a sticky. Yes, a .380 does have limitations compared with bigger calibers. It won't shoot through car doors. But 99% of the time it won't matter, for the reasons described. FBI stats show that about 90% (I believe it's 92%) of the times when a firearm is used to deter a crime, no shots at ALL are fired, the mere brandishing of the weapon being sufficient. In 99.99% of the other cases, when the BG feels several bullets slamming into him, he changes his mind instantly.

In the exceedingly rare event that such an attack is continued, I've practiced extensively with my P238, and at 10 feet I can easily pump rounds into his face at the rate of 5 shots per second, or take out one or both knees or feet. While a .380 is obviously not a .45 or 10mm, it's by no means a pop gun. If you disagree, please go stand over there and let me shoot you a few times with it, and you can tell me what you think.

Sure, there's a probability you could get into a worst-case scenario, the "charging 300 pound drug-crazed lunatic," but statistically it's EXTREMELY improbable. You have a greater chance of being hit by a falling albatross. Being a .380 carrier, I acknowledge... and accept... that limitation in exchange for having a very compact, comfortable CW I don't even notice in its OWB holster. Just my decision. Thanks for discussing it politely, and not like some chest-thumping blowhard who's watched too many Bruce Willis movies.

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Originally Posted by EsCrasston

I appreciated your argument until you started insulting everyone who didn't agree with your point of view. My issue is, with the combination of my body stature and with the way I have to dress for a particular situation sometimes, it is impossible for me to conceal anything more than a small mouse gun. This is for ME. I wish I could carry one of my bigger guns all the time, but its impossible. In a perfect world, everyone would be able to carry the biggest gun possible with the most rounds. But this is NOT a perfect world. If it was, nobody would need guns because there would be no violence and bad people trying to hurt good ones. Some people have to sacrifice certain things. The argument I stand by in this is - a gun is better than no gun. Last I checked, a .380 is a gun, so it will do.

I'm not going to "jump on you" and I don't consider myself a "mousegunner." I don't have a collection of .380's and lurk on these forums searching out threads like this just so I can sneak my argument in. Like I said, I don't disagree with the facts in your argument. I think everyone is aware that there are many rounds that perform a great deal better than the .380. What I disagree with is the fact that they are "wrong" for choosing to carry this caliber for whatever the reason may be. I guess my response to you is that it is not stupidity or trying to justify anything (for most of us at least). It is more of being confident in the choices we have made for whatever the reason, and the fact that we are tired of being insulted for choosing something other than what has been the "norm" for a long time.

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Es I wasn't insulting (or wasn't my intention to) anyone. I'm was pointing out reasons and arguments that are often given and why I personally disagree with them. If you or anyone else is offended by my opinions I apologize. However, I won't apologize for my stance against that caliber for primary SD. I carry a 357 magnum revolver that is smaller than some of the .380s mentioned in this thread. If that round is too stout it can also be loaded with .38 or .38+p.

My point here is that there are other options available that fit the bill for those needing a small concealable weapon that is chambered in a larger more powerful caliber.

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Originally Posted by deadguy

Es I wasn't insulting (or wasn't my intention to) anyone. I'm was pointing out reasons and arguments that are often given and why I personally disagree with them. If you or anyone else is offended by my opinions I apologize. However, I won't apologize for my stance against that caliber for primary SD. I carry a 357 magnum revolver that is smaller than some of the .380s mentioned in this thread. If that round is too stout it can also be loaded with .38 or .38+p.

My point here is that there are other options available that fit the bill for those needing a small concealable weapon that is chambered in a larger more powerful caliber.

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I understand why you disagree with those arguments, but you have to understand that those are not the only ones in favor of a .380 caliber weapon. Many of us have other reasons behind our choices. I would never ask you or expect you to apologize for your opinions or your point of view. You are absolutely entitled to them just as you are entitled to carry the weapon of your choice.

There are many other options, yes. But I have yet to find one better for MYSELF than my P238 (I personally prefer semi-autos over revolvers, so they are ruled out for me). I have handled revolvers and everything, and I am just not as comfortable for ME. Especially for the variety of ways I carry my Sig (even as a BUG to one of its bigger counterparts).

My bottom line is: Is my Sig (or the .380 caliber) the best choice for primary carry? Absolutely not. Is it better than nothing when other options aren't practical? Absolutely.

arguments gettin' good !

......pass the popcorn ! :popcorn:

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Originally Posted by artz

arguments gettin' good !

......pass the popcorn ! :popcorn:

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What argument? :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by artz

I prefer the .380 over the nine.
I'll tell you my reason....the ability to control the weapon under stress and duress.
I can take my single action mustang and triple / quadriple tap accurately on one or more attackers, while I'll get myself killed using my Kahr CW9. You just can't squeeze off rounds as quick nor as accurate as the mustang, due to recoil and trigger type.
Yes, its an old argument but its sure fun to read what others say on the subject.

If your a fan of either round, Lets hear your point of view !

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How do you shoot both on the move? One handed?

For me the Glock 36 makes this whole argument irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Lyndo

For me the Glock 36 makes this whole argument irrelevant.

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Key word there is for YOU. Not for many others.

I have a tendencie to use two hands to shoot.
I point shoot with one hand.
I can't run thanks to my once crushed ankle. and .....
I'm just SOL shooting with my weak hand.