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Everything I thought about laser sights is wrong - pretty shooting pics- update #29

15K views 74 replies 28 participants last post by  Tangle 
#1 ·
Well, not everything I thought was wrong, but my recent experiences with a Viridian C5L light/laser has been illuminating (pun intended). I had no idea what a laser can enable you to do. I've always thought of a laser as a short range sight, good for times when sights couldn't be brought up to eye level and such, but they are far more than that.

The reason I'm putting this in this forum, is this my defensive gun - and it has a Viridian C5L on it. But let's get to the details. I'm going to show you some comparison shooting between a laser and iron sights. If you want to see more about the C5L itself go here:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...-lasermax-unimax-luminescent-sights-more.html

I put my C5L back on my Sig 226R SRT using the long adaptors, so re-alignment was in order. First let me show you some 10 yard shots while sighting it in. This is all off-hand, too. Here's the first pic; I can't remember if I did this a 7 or 10 yds now, still...



That may not look so impressive, but look again. You see small, tight, three shot groups groups all around the 2 inch target. E.g The first group I shot is the wide group at about 4:00. I made a windage adjustment (over-adjusted) and the second group is at about 7:00. That second group is two or three shots. I could have had a 'flier', I just can't remember. But hold on, here's a pic I remember well.

After sighting the laser in at 10yds, I moved the target to 15 yds for my last four shots.



A bit of explanation is in order here. The center shots in the X ring were done with iron sights. That's my standard eval drill which consists of 5 shots each at 3, 5, 7, 10, & 15 yds. So with iron sights at 15 yds, I had two shots out of the X ring. So that's what that's about and it has nothing to do with the laser - I didn't use it on those.

The 3" ShootnC is the target I shot with my last four shots at 15 yds. Here's some perspective, the same 4 shots up close and I'm new to shooting with a laser sight:



I'll tell you what, this has made a believer out of me! I want to do this some more to see if the consistency is there, but what I've done before is consistent, not quite as good, but consistent.

I'm now asking myself, do you really want to shoot with iron sights if a laser sight is available?
 
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#2 ·
Tangle, I'm assuming that not all of these shots were off-handed, however, still mighty fine shootin'. Typically, how long is your duration between shots?

I've also zeroed CTC grip on my M&P 40c with similar results. Some people swear by them, and others don't seem to quite get the hang of them. Some of the side benefits of shooting with a laser are both eyes open, you don't have to fully raise gun and draw down to "aim" then shoot, you get to see how steady you are able to hold and what happens at trigger pull. I typically don't keep my on 90-95% of the time during range sessions (i.e, shoot one or two mags with them on) but they're always on when I carry.
 
#3 ·
Practice with laser sights gives you instant feedback (with a proper target) as to how steady you're holding and if you're flinching. I think it can even improve your iron sight only shooting due to that feedback, acquiring a steadier hold on target.

Next time, try this. Shoot with the laser, say 20 rounds, then shoot with iron sights only. I'd bet your iron sight shooting grouping is improved.
 
#4 ·
MotorCityGun said:
Tangle, I'm assuming that not all of these shots were off-handed, however, still mighty fine shootin'. Typically, how long is your duration between shots?
All were off-hand, i.e. no rest of any kind used.

It was definitely slow fire; my purpose was to evaluate the accuracy potential of the C5L - and if it would stay put - it did!
 
#5 ·
Speculator said:
Practice with laser sights gives you instant feedback (with a proper target) as to how steady you're holding and if you're flinching. I think it can even improve your iron sight only shooting due to that feedback, acquiring a steadier hold on target.

Next time, try this. Shoot with the laser, say 20 rounds, then shoot with iron sights only. I'd bet your iron sight shooting grouping is improved.
I don't doubt it for a minute! :yup:
 
#6 ·
Another great benefit to using a laser is that a second person can watch the laser and see which way the dot of light moves on the target as the shooter breaks off the shot. I was able to help a buddy correct his trigger finger position to keep his little S&W Bodyguard .380 steady. He could not see the laser moving off center as he broke the shot, but I could clearly see it.
 
#8 ·
Great thoughts guys; I'm gonna try to incorporate these ideas into my training.

helderberg said:
Great information and great shooting. Thanks.
Frank.
Thanks Frank. To be perfectly candid here, I'm hoping this wasn't one of those beginner's luck thing - I'm not sure I'm as good as this session might suggest. I'll be a wreck the next time I shoot - too much pressure from expectation. :frown:
 
#9 ·
I have had similar results from CT used on my G19 and also have used them on my G26 and my 642CT. I am a big fan of the laser. To the OP thats nice shooting. Like your Sig as well. :smile:
 
#10 ·
I've never tried a laser. I think it has a lot of potential for either training or defensive use if it proves beneficial to the user. I've always been partial to open iron sights on both handguns and long guns...but that's just what I've become accustom to. I'm anxious to see your report after several more sessions...hope it goes well.
 
#11 ·
"He could not see the laser moving off center as he broke the shot, but I could clearly see it."

Sort of a big boo boo that some folks tend to make in SD shooting with a laser equipped firearm.
AKA attempting to see the Laser dot as a visual affirmation of the iron sights and so their eyes remain focused at the firearm location and on the firearm front sight.
Then they often cannot see the dot or they are not really paying attention to it.
In actual use the eyes are not focused on the firearm at all and the shooter only focuses on the laser dot and it's location on the threat.
 
#12 ·
Great demonstration. Most people who are critical of lasers have never actually used one. They're a crutch; can't see them in daylight; the battery will go dead when you need it, is all BS.

I'm a believer and have them on all my normal carry weapons. Had to modify the Crimson Trace grips to fit my 6906, 908 and CS9, but that's how much I believe in them.
 
#36 ·
SIXTO - I am not sure how old you are, but your eyesight must be better than mine. When I was young, I would have agreed with your statement. Now, I have trifocals and focusing on multiple planes simultaneously no longer happens. If the front sight is in focus the the target is not. If the target is in focus the sights are a blur. Shoot, if the front sight is in focus, the rears are blurry.

Now, with a laser, I only have to focus on the target and my "sight" is also in focus. I also have much better ability to see what else is going on as I am not in my intermediate prescription.

Hopefully you will never have these issues, but if you do, CT is there for you.
 
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#14 ·
Not too shabby'but if you put all your shots in the same hole you miss out on hitting more vital organs and more holes so the perp can bleed out faster,that's why when people see my target they ask what kind of shotgun and buckshot I used,even tho they seen me using a pistol"People can be so cruel sometimes".
 
#15 ·
SIXTO said:
If you can do that with a laser, there is no reason why you cannot with out.
My round count for the year is 10,800. Out of all of that shooting, I've never come close to what I did with a laser. I shoot 25 shots for precision everytime I shoot and the best I can do at 15 yards is keep all the hits in the X ring. That's a far cry from four shots that a quarter will cover at 15 yds.

There are a number of reasons why we can shoot more accurately with a laser: there is no alignment uncertainty as there is with iron sights. Especially at my age, 66, eyes don't see what they used to. They can't focus up close as well, they can't focus as rapidly as younger eyes can. They don't have the same vision quality. There's an article in one of the latest gun mags about eyes and things we can do to help aging eyes. He mentioned that one reason we can't shoot at 60 the way we did in our pre-45 years is the eyes can't focus as quickly as they used to. He claims that young eyes can focus so rapidly, they are able to get a much better sight picture and alignment.

A laser takes all that away. The focal plane and the focus is truely single plane and there's no alignment of three objects required.

I've even notice shooting at faster rates how quickly the target is re-acquired. I used to believe for a handgun, nothing was better than iron sights. Of those 10,800 rounds I've shot this year, only 200 of them have been with a laser. I can see an immediate difference in performance - and I don't shoot all that bad with iron sights to start with.


dukalmighty said:
]Not too shabby'but if you put all your shots in the same hole you miss out on hitting more vital organs and more holes so the perp can bleed out faster,that's why when people see my target they ask what kind of shotgun and buckshot I used,even tho they seen me using a pistol"People can be so cruel sometimes".
You don't have to put all your shots in the same spot with a laser, but it gives you the option. I wanted to see how accurate a laser sight was and if it would hold POI.

Sure scatter fire is effective, but that can be done just as easily with a laser as without. Don't forget, you don't have to use a laser just because it's available.

Then for more precision shots on partially disclosed threats and or where it's difficult to see the sights or profile of the gun due to a dark threat, there's no doubt where that laser is. You can even have the gun and laser one place and your head safely displaced in another position away from the gun. You can't do that with red dot sights and iron sights.

I know guys, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool iron sight person myself, but I find myself asking why?
 
#31 ·
I know guys, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool iron sight person myself, but I find myself asking why?
Good write up and thanks, the others write-ups are good too. I'd like to add something......we read here about one brand/model of handgun being highly favored by one person, but someone else may really dislike it. We're all different, and that's okay, I bet we all don't wear the same shoes.

I think exactly the same thing can be said about your laser experience, it may work for you, but someone else may not care for it. So what? You make the best decision you can for yourself, live with it, and if it doesn't work out you can change to something different someday.

I try not to get too deep in the "camps" that are absolutely for, or against something.

Good job, Mr Tangle.
 
#16 ·
I love my lasers but I train 90% with them off. Do not get dependent.
 
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#20 ·
I thought they were some sort of gimmick, too, until I got some experience with them.

Initially, I installed a laser on my 638 as sort of an adjustable sight for a J frame that pointed one direction and shot another. One thing lead to another and I became a believer and put them on the 3d gens I carry more often.

I think there are a lot of subtle advantages to lasers that no one has really explored. Your experience with them and improved accuracy is impressive. On the other end of the scale is novices like my wife. She has always enjoyed shooting a .22 rifle (with a scope), but completely refused to pick up a pistol (even a .22). I worked for weeks modifying the CT grip for my 6906 and when I finally got it right I rushed in to show her. It was like the little light came on over her head and she got interested in pistols. It never dawned on me that she was unclear on the concept of sight alignment. Seems so intuitive to us, but may be daunting to a newbee and a laser is a perfect training aid to show sight alignment, trigger flinch, etc.

CT has some excellent information at Why Laser Sights are an Effective Self-Defense Tool | Crimson Trace Lasergrips

(In full disclosure, I have no connection with CT, but have agreed to modify a few CT lasergrips to fit S&W SA models that CT doesn't make a grip for.)
 
#19 ·
357and40 said:
I love my lasers but I train 90% with them off. Do not get dependent.
Just for the sake of discussion: If you train 90% of the time without a laser, how well would one be trained to use it in a life or death situation?

I'm just exploring ideas, not challenging.

OTOH, why not get dependent on a laser? Again, just exploring.
 
#21 ·
Tangle: Great points, but I have a more urgent question:WHAT'S THE NAME OF THE CUTE LITTLE POOCH?:35:
 
#22 ·
Philly Boy said:
Tangle: Great points, but I have a more urgent question:WHAT'S THE NAME OF THE CUTE LITTLE POOCH?
That's the real Tangle - she just lets me use her name.

She was a stray that came to a friends' house; she was soaking wet and hurt. I got a call from my wife one day to ask me if I wanted a cute little dog. I said NO, she said, "Well we have to pick it up by 6:00." Tangle is one of the best things that's ever happened to me.

She got her name because when I first got her, she pretty much kept herself or her leash and herself, tangled up in my feet; so she got named Tangle.

She's old now; I know I won't have her many more years; when she goes, I'll never be the same again - I've never seen such loyality and affection from an animal.
 
#25 ·
I've never seen such loyality and affection from an animal.
It's not the size of the dog with a heart, it's the size of the heart in the dog. I just lost 10 yo 250# mastif Baskerville last week, and even my laser shooting will no doubt suffer for a while yet. When I walk out to the range, I can get only as far as his grave.

The noobs need to be warned about the false sense of skill a laser can give them, if they don't pay attention to the fundamentals of grip and trigger management.

When the boys discovered that the CT's still worked on the frame of my Ultra CDP after I put on the 22 conversion slide, it was buh bye to a couple of bricks in no time. Dog Vertebrate Canidae Mammal Dog breed
 
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#23 ·
TANGLE " II ": Great story--- there is hardly any other love in this world that compares with the TOTAL affection a pet gives one. :king:
 
#27 ·
varob said:
Which holster do you use that fits a rail mounted laser?
I'm sad to say I don't have one right now. I have to un-install and re-install the C5L right now. But I have a Raven Concealment Phantom holster on order that will accommodate the P226R with the C5L.

Phantom Light Compatible Holster

Of course, the C5L won't be nearly as long, big, nor extend past the muzzle like the one in their 'typical' pic. The only problem with RC is the wait time - 16 to 18 weeks! :ticking: But that's still not as bad as some manufacturers. I've been in line for 5 weeks, so I've got a while to wait. :frown:
 
#29 ·
Update: Rapid fire

Edit: My bad!!! this was shot at 7 yds, not 10 yds like I said previously. I think I have everything corrected to 7 yds now - sorry about that!

This is one rapid fire shoot from 7 yds on a 3" ShootnC. The fire rate was about as fast as the laser came back on target; some were surprisingly reactively fast. And that SRT system in the Sig 226 was helping too.



An interesting thing about this is, since there's a big hole in the middle, how do you see the laser dot in the hole for sighting????

Ans. With a green laser, you can see the beam all the way to the target; it's clear where it's indexed even though there can't be a dot if the laser is indexed in the hole!

I should point out that this was indoors, and there was some 'gunsmoke' - the green laser is fascinating in the smoke!

I want to add here that this was the first 're-installation' from a sighted in laser. I.e. I sighted it in yesterday and had to remove it. I re-installed it today, and I really don't see how it is possible, but it was almost dead on where it was yesterday.

I'm looking so forward to receiving my Raven Concealment holster so I don't have to keep taking it off and on.
 
#45 ·
Thanks for the kind words re: Baskerville. I hope others will be as blessed as I have been with really good dogs sharing their brief lives with me.


I should point out that this was indoors, and there was some 'gunsmoke' - the green laser is fascinating in the smoke!
With dust or smoke in the air, the laser could be a dead giveaway, like racking that shottie to scare away the gremlins only to have your position revealed. There may be a case for night sights.
 
#35 ·
I think Tangle is a good shot without laser, which makes it a lot easier to be a good shot WITH laser. Being able to quickly put the gun on target is a required skill regardless of sighting method and my guess is Tangle has this.

I did a dueling (with the flip targets, NOT old west style) competition shoot once (not in an actual competition mind you, just for fun against a couple of friends) and I found myself looking for the laser dot on the targets instead of lining up the iron sights. I got SMOKED. This was a 1911 with a laser. The moral of this story is there are situations that trying to find the laser instead of just lining up the sights may take longer. A good defensive training technique for using a laser would be line up the iron sights, THEN focus to the laser, maybe even after the first shot is fired.

Thanks for taking the time to post Tangle, good thread.

Mike
 
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