Everything I thought about laser sights is wrong - pretty shooting pics- update #29

This is a discussion on Everything I thought about laser sights is wrong - pretty shooting pics- update #29 within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well, not everything I thought was wrong, but my recent experiences with a Viridian C5L light/laser has been illuminating (pun intended). I had no idea ...

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Thread: Everything I thought about laser sights is wrong - pretty shooting pics- update #29

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    Everything I thought about laser sights is wrong - pretty shooting pics- update #29

    Well, not everything I thought was wrong, but my recent experiences with a Viridian C5L light/laser has been illuminating (pun intended). I had no idea what a laser can enable you to do. I've always thought of a laser as a short range sight, good for times when sights couldn't be brought up to eye level and such, but they are far more than that.

    The reason I'm putting this in this forum, is this my defensive gun - and it has a Viridian C5L on it. But let's get to the details. I'm going to show you some comparison shooting between a laser and iron sights. If you want to see more about the C5L itself go here:

    Viriidian C5L, TLR-2 Light/laser combos, LaserMax Unimax, luminescent sights & more

    I put my C5L back on my Sig 226R SRT using the long adaptors, so re-alignment was in order. First let me show you some 10 yard shots while sighting it in. This is all off-hand, too. Here's the first pic; I can't remember if I did this a 7 or 10 yds now, still...



    That may not look so impressive, but look again. You see small, tight, three shot groups groups all around the 2 inch target. E.g The first group I shot is the wide group at about 4:00. I made a windage adjustment (over-adjusted) and the second group is at about 7:00. That second group is two or three shots. I could have had a 'flier', I just can't remember. But hold on, here's a pic I remember well.

    After sighting the laser in at 10yds, I moved the target to 15 yds for my last four shots.



    A bit of explanation is in order here. The center shots in the X ring were done with iron sights. That's my standard eval drill which consists of 5 shots each at 3, 5, 7, 10, & 15 yds. So with iron sights at 15 yds, I had two shots out of the X ring. So that's what that's about and it has nothing to do with the laser - I didn't use it on those.

    The 3" ShootnC is the target I shot with my last four shots at 15 yds. Here's some perspective, the same 4 shots up close and I'm new to shooting with a laser sight:



    I'll tell you what, this has made a believer out of me! I want to do this some more to see if the consistency is there, but what I've done before is consistent, not quite as good, but consistent.

    I'm now asking myself, do you really want to shoot with iron sights if a laser sight is available?
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    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    Tangle, I'm assuming that not all of these shots were off-handed, however, still mighty fine shootin'. Typically, how long is your duration between shots?

    I've also zeroed CTC grip on my M&P 40c with similar results. Some people swear by them, and others don't seem to quite get the hang of them. Some of the side benefits of shooting with a laser are both eyes open, you don't have to fully raise gun and draw down to "aim" then shoot, you get to see how steady you are able to hold and what happens at trigger pull. I typically don't keep my on 90-95% of the time during range sessions (i.e, shoot one or two mags with them on) but they're always on when I carry.
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    Practice with laser sights gives you instant feedback (with a proper target) as to how steady you're holding and if you're flinching. I think it can even improve your iron sight only shooting due to that feedback, acquiring a steadier hold on target.

    Next time, try this. Shoot with the laser, say 20 rounds, then shoot with iron sights only. I'd bet your iron sight shooting grouping is improved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MotorCityGun
    Tangle, I'm assuming that not all of these shots were off-handed, however, still mighty fine shootin'. Typically, how long is your duration between shots?
    All were off-hand, i.e. no rest of any kind used.

    It was definitely slow fire; my purpose was to evaluate the accuracy potential of the C5L - and if it would stay put - it did!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speculator
    Practice with laser sights gives you instant feedback (with a proper target) as to how steady you're holding and if you're flinching. I think it can even improve your iron sight only shooting due to that feedback, acquiring a steadier hold on target.

    Next time, try this. Shoot with the laser, say 20 rounds, then shoot with iron sights only. I'd bet your iron sight shooting grouping is improved.
    I don't doubt it for a minute!
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    Another great benefit to using a laser is that a second person can watch the laser and see which way the dot of light moves on the target as the shooter breaks off the shot. I was able to help a buddy correct his trigger finger position to keep his little S&W Bodyguard .380 steady. He could not see the laser moving off center as he broke the shot, but I could clearly see it.
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    Great information and great shooting. Thanks.
    Frank.

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    Great thoughts guys; I'm gonna try to incorporate these ideas into my training.

    Quote Originally Posted by helderberg
    Great information and great shooting. Thanks.
    Frank.
    Thanks Frank. To be perfectly candid here, I'm hoping this wasn't one of those beginner's luck thing - I'm not sure I'm as good as this session might suggest. I'll be a wreck the next time I shoot - too much pressure from expectation.
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    I have had similar results from CT used on my G19 and also have used them on my G26 and my 642CT. I am a big fan of the laser. To the OP thats nice shooting. Like your Sig as well.
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    I've never tried a laser. I think it has a lot of potential for either training or defensive use if it proves beneficial to the user. I've always been partial to open iron sights on both handguns and long guns...but that's just what I've become accustom to. I'm anxious to see your report after several more sessions...hope it goes well.
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    "He could not see the laser moving off center as he broke the shot, but I could clearly see it."

    Sort of a big boo boo that some folks tend to make in SD shooting with a laser equipped firearm.
    AKA attempting to see the Laser dot as a visual affirmation of the iron sights and so their eyes remain focused at the firearm location and on the firearm front sight.
    Then they often cannot see the dot or they are not really paying attention to it.
    In actual use the eyes are not focused on the firearm at all and the shooter only focuses on the laser dot and it's location on the threat.
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    Great demonstration. Most people who are critical of lasers have never actually used one. They're a crutch; can't see them in daylight; the battery will go dead when you need it, is all BS.

    I'm a believer and have them on all my normal carry weapons. Had to modify the Crimson Trace grips to fit my 6906, 908 and CS9, but that's how much I believe in them.

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    If you can do that with a laser, there is no reason why you cannot with out.
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    Not too shabby'but if you put all your shots in the same hole you miss out on hitting more vital organs and more holes so the perp can bleed out faster,that's why when people see my target they ask what kind of shotgun and buckshot I used,even tho they seen me using a pistol"People can be so cruel sometimes".
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO
    If you can do that with a laser, there is no reason why you cannot with out.
    My round count for the year is 10,800. Out of all of that shooting, I've never come close to what I did with a laser. I shoot 25 shots for precision everytime I shoot and the best I can do at 15 yards is keep all the hits in the X ring. That's a far cry from four shots that a quarter will cover at 15 yds.

    There are a number of reasons why we can shoot more accurately with a laser: there is no alignment uncertainty as there is with iron sights. Especially at my age, 66, eyes don't see what they used to. They can't focus up close as well, they can't focus as rapidly as younger eyes can. They don't have the same vision quality. There's an article in one of the latest gun mags about eyes and things we can do to help aging eyes. He mentioned that one reason we can't shoot at 60 the way we did in our pre-45 years is the eyes can't focus as quickly as they used to. He claims that young eyes can focus so rapidly, they are able to get a much better sight picture and alignment.

    A laser takes all that away. The focal plane and the focus is truely single plane and there's no alignment of three objects required.

    I've even notice shooting at faster rates how quickly the target is re-acquired. I used to believe for a handgun, nothing was better than iron sights. Of those 10,800 rounds I've shot this year, only 200 of them have been with a laser. I can see an immediate difference in performance - and I don't shoot all that bad with iron sights to start with.


    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty
    ]Not too shabby'but if you put all your shots in the same hole you miss out on hitting more vital organs and more holes so the perp can bleed out faster,that's why when people see my target they ask what kind of shotgun and buckshot I used,even tho they seen me using a pistol"People can be so cruel sometimes".
    You don't have to put all your shots in the same spot with a laser, but it gives you the option. I wanted to see how accurate a laser sight was and if it would hold POI.

    Sure scatter fire is effective, but that can be done just as easily with a laser as without. Don't forget, you don't have to use a laser just because it's available.

    Then for more precision shots on partially disclosed threats and or where it's difficult to see the sights or profile of the gun due to a dark threat, there's no doubt where that laser is. You can even have the gun and laser one place and your head safely displaced in another position away from the gun. You can't do that with red dot sights and iron sights.

    I know guys, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool iron sight person myself, but I find myself asking why?
    I'm too young to be this old!
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