Modified Weapons and Civil or Criminal Defense

This is a discussion on Modified Weapons and Civil or Criminal Defense within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SamRudolph Why would they do that? The overwhelming issue is not whether or not your hair-trigger, high-capacity, ceramic assault sniper pistol with ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamRudolph View Post

    Why would they do that? The overwhelming issue is not whether or not your hair-trigger, high-capacity, ceramic assault sniper pistol with its exploding hollow-point bullets of death was modified. ...
    If the prosecution's theory was murder, then no...

    If the theory was negligence or recklessness...they will do it.

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  3. #47
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    I keep and will keep any gun I ever own completely stock. No need to give some young lawyer, with a chubby, uneccessary ammo.

  4. #48
    Distinguished Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    If the prosecution's theory was murder, then no...

    If the theory was negligence or recklessness...they will do it.
    Perhaps, but again, as long as you have articulable reasons for making the modifications that you did, then it doesn't seem likely the fact would hang you.
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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    I'm not playing the "Yeah, but..." game.

    Especially not with people who want to do something, and are looking for a justification for doing something that may be less than wise, or with people looking to score points off a lawyer online who don't know how a shooting is reviewed criminally or civily.

    The amount of internet BS and general insunderstanding of criminal law & negligence is rather frightening.

    Modifying a gun beyond manufacturer specs is a bad thing.

    If you don't understand why, or believe you know better, have at it.

    But reality does not change because you want it to.

    Even in Texas.
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  6. #50
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I'm not playing the "Yeah, but..." game.

    Especially not with people who want to do something, and are looking for a justification for doing something that may be less than wise, or with people looking to score points off a lawyer online who don't know how a shooting is reviewed criminally or civily.

    The amount of internet BS and general insunderstanding of criminal law & negligence is rather frightening.

    Modifying a gun beyond manufacturer specs is a bad thing.

    If you don't understand why, or believe you know better, have at it.

    But reality does not change because you want it to.

    Even in Texas.

    Well said.

  7. #51
    Member Array glockfan23's Avatar
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    I can say in florida if you decided to mod your carry gun you will not be prosecuted , I cant get in details but , when police took my glock19 for evidence and testing, they never call me or anything happen regarding my 3.5 trigger job ,never .
    i

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I'm not playing the "Yeah, but..." game.

    Especially not with people who want to do something, and are looking for a justification for doing something that may be less than wise, or with people looking to score points off a lawyer online who don't know how a shooting is reviewed criminally or civily.

    The amount of internet BS and general insunderstanding of criminal law & negligence is rather frightening.

    Modifying a gun beyond manufacturer specs is a bad thing.

    If you don't understand why, or believe you know better, have at it.

    But reality does not change because you want it to.

    Even in Texas.
    what examples(court cases) do you know the lock up someone for having a mod carry gun, if you shoot the bad guy to safe your life or your loves one , no matter if you got 1 pound trigger or 20 pounds trigger ,dont make any diffrent

  9. #53
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    LOL

    Sorry, till the matter is clarified, the guy with the GSW is the victim.

    That is the way it is.
    :( I guess that proves we're guilty until proven innocent .........

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    What is a victim?

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    LOL

    Sorry, till the matter is clarified, the guy with the GSW is the victim.

    That is the way it is.
    I went to the online dictionary and looked up the definition of "victim". It said "One who is harmed or killed by another: a victim of a mugging."

    It seems possible that a particular situation could have two victims. First the innocent civilian who is assaulted or robbed by a criminal - victim #1, then the criminal who is shot in self defense by the civilian - victim #2. We should forget the assumption that being a victim automatically entitles you to sympathy or the presumption of innocence. A victim is just the recipient of harm, and a criminal who is shot while commiting a crime has indeed been harmed.
    Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the Peoples' Liberty's Teeth." - George Washington

  11. #55
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    There is really nothing to defend....Just show me one verifiable case where in a otherwise justifiable shooting someone was held legally or civilly libel for a shooting because of a modification to the firearm used in the justifiable shooting. Good luck. This type of question comes up often here and no one has been able to show even one example. And do you really think the police will disassemble and inspect every part of your firearm to check for new springs or trigger parts or whatever....get real. Lets see what your research comes up with, show us the examples. I guess everybody should remove the Tritium night sights they installed on their Glocks.....it makes the pistol so much more deadly.
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  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    In Arizona, the Harold Fish case proved this to be true. Fish was set upon by two dogs while out hiking in the back country. One of the dogs had a history of vicious behavior against people, and Fish fired a shot in the ground to deter the dogs, which actually worked. But the psycho/disturbed owner of the dogs threatened Fish aggressively; Fish shot him a couple of times center mass with a 10mm auto, and the nut case died.

    After initially being consoled by a sympathetic cop investigating the matter, Fish was charged with murder by a career-climbing prosecutor. It didn't help that the AZ law regarding self-defense being an affirmative defense had change, but one of the points the prosecution harped on was that Fish was an avid shooter and gun collector, and "why did you carry such a big gun" became a core issue.

    Fish was convicted, but after more than two years behind bars, was freed after his (new) defense successfully appealed the case based on numerous court errors.

    Cases of self-defense shootings with far more questionable circumstances have never even made it to trial out here. The point is, per F350's post, all it takes is a hell-bent prosecutor trying to make a name for himself, and your life can turn to mud in an instant.

    Read more about the Harold Fish case here: Harold Fish Defense
    The question here in this case was the justification of the use of deadly force not any modification to the weapon.
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  13. #57
    sgb
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    First, very few of us (me included) have pockets deep enough to make it worth while for an attorney to bother suing. A judgment is worthless if it's noncollectable.

    Secondly, if the shoot is justified it's justified, modified firearm (which isn't illegal) or not.

    This whole argument is way over blown, S&W offers models with and without mag disconnects, with or without thumb safties. Colt, Kimber & S&W offer 1911 models with and without firing pin block assemblies ......... so if I modify my Kimber Custom II by removing the firing pin block assembly how is that any different than if I'd just bought a Kimber Warrior without the firing pin block assembly?

    This whole subject in my opinion is way over blown.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  14. #58
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockfan23 View Post
    what examples(court cases) do you know the lock up someone for having a mod carry gun, if you shoot the bad guy to safe your life or your loves one , no matter if you got 1 pound trigger or 20 pounds trigger ,dont make any diffrent
    Show me the caselaw…

    Read it.

    If that doesn't clarify why your question is flawed in it assumptions, just say so, and continue believing as you do, asking for examples when they don't actually prove or disprove anything.


    Further...

    What you need to understand is that in a prosecution for a defensive use of force, it's the sum of the errors and the "What the ...?" comments that hang you.

    Self defense is based on the reasonable man.

    How would he act?
    What would he perceive?
    What would he have?

    What defines reasonable in a highly unreasonable situation - professionals. They set the standards, because we really don't have anything else to judge by.

    Cops. Instructors. Competition people. Military. Manufacturers.

    Your goal is to keep within the use of force requirements within the law, and have your actions judged reasonable by those who know better.

    Some modifications can and have been explained as reasonable by experts under some circumstances.

    But for the most part...regardless of it's not being any more deadly, it's against convention. It's a sticking point.

    For better or worse, their is literature recommending against it, so when putting your actions under review, it gets you. Right or wrong, it gets you.

    That's why it's not a good idea.
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  15. #59
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    :( I guess that proves we're guilty until proven innocent .........
    No.

    It just proves that most people haven't a clue about how a lethal force situation is approached by those investigating it.

    People seem to want to live in the "Gun Land" made up world in which every shooting is perfectly clear, the cops are on your side intro CCW classes are all that people need to know, and that CCW instructors 1) have a full grasp of the material they are teaching, and 2) aren't dumbing info down for the 4/6/8 huors of material they are required to cover.

    Get real.

    Reality is messy, inefficient and confusing.

    Things happen, mistakes are made and sometimes the bad people win.

    My outlook is that of a risk-manager, not an idealist. If that puts me in conflict with some people and makes they feel as if I'm anti-self defense, a liberal or just don't know what I'm talking about because my statements don't mesh with what they have an emotional investment in - too dam bad for them.

    I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. If you want to cry, find a hooker and buy some love.

    Generally speaking, when the police find a guy with a bullet in him, it's pretty logical to assume someone shot him - therefore he becomes the victim in the police report.

    Self defense with a firearm happens a lot in the USA as a nation - it may not happen frequently in any particular area, so while defensive shootings are commonplace...

    Other shootings are more-so.

    "Self-defense is a legal defense to the use of force which would otherwise be criminal.” State v. Jimenez, 30 Conn. App. 406, 413, 620 A.2d 817, 820 (Conn. App. Ct. 1993) rev'd, 228 Conn. 335, 636 A.2d 782 (1994)

    Shooting people is usually considered "bad" for some reason, and till otherwise explained, the guy with the GSW is the victim.

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockfan23 View Post
    what examples(court cases) do you know the lock up someone for having a mod carry gun, if you shoot the bad guy to safe your life or your loves one , no matter if you got 1 pound trigger or 20 pounds trigger ,dont make any diffrent
    Further...

    As I read what you have posted, it is likely any answer I could reply with will either be insufficient for you, or beyond your comprehension.

    Grammar & spelling, snowflake.

    Get some.

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