Modified Weapons and Civil or Criminal Defense

This is a discussion on Modified Weapons and Civil or Criminal Defense within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MitchellCT Further... As I read what you have posted, it is likely any answer I could reply with will either be insufficient ...

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Thread: Modified Weapons and Civil or Criminal Defense

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Further...

    As I read what you have posted, it is likely any answer I could reply with will either be insufficient for you, or beyond your comprehension.

    Grammar & spelling, snowflake.

    Get some.
    PM sent.
    Best way to win a gun fight? "That's easy, don't show up."
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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    Mitchell: Of course you are right. However, the hard truth of the matter is you are really, really right. The vast majority of people have very little to no knowledge of how the system really works. Beyond a reasonable doubt/preponderance of the evidence? They do not have a clue. What is or is not evidentiary is far beyond the abilities of most. Understanding the nuances, and hazards, of an affirmative defense is asking a lot of the average person. I do however, applaud you for still fighting the good fight and trying to educate members of the forum. I do pick up on your frustration, but for what it is worth, you bring a dimension that is really needed in this environment.
    Best way to win a gun fight? "That's easy, don't show up."
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  4. #63
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    This whole argument is way over blown, S&W offers models with and without mag disconnects, with or without thumb safties. Colt, Kimber & S&W offer 1911 models with and without firing pin block assemblies ......... so if I modify my Kimber Custom II by removing the firing pin block assembly how is that any different than if I'd just bought a Kimber Warrior without the firing pin block assembly?
    One weapon is exactly as the manufacturer designed it.

    The other has a safety the manufacturer designed, tested and integrated...removed by the user.

    If self defense is all about being reasonable, which of the above is reasonable?

  5. #64
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Further...

    As I read what you have posted, it is likely any answer I could reply with will either be insufficient for you, or beyond your comprehension.

    Grammar & spelling, snowflake.

    Get some.

    While I agree with you 100% on this topic, you may as well leave it alone. Too many suburban rambo's want their EDC tricked out to the max so they can come on gun sites and show off tons of pics to their interwebz buddies about how much they spent on their piece. They got the coolest laser light, most expensive night sights etc. Dumb as dumb can be in my honest opinion.

    I will add, while on the subject, night sights are the biggest joke and waste of money when thinking about a SD situation such as a home invasion in the middle of the night. If we are talking reality and not some comic book, fantasy scenerio.

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    While I agree with you 100% on this topic, you may as well leave it alone. Too many suburban rambo's want their EDC tricked out to the max so they can come on gun sites and show off tons of pics to their interwebz buddies about how much they spent on their piece. They got the coolest laser light, most expensive night sights etc. Dumb as dumb can be in my honest opinion.

    I will add, while on the subject, night sights are the biggest joke and waste of money when thinking about a SD situation such as a home invasion in the middle of the night. If we are talking reality and not some comic book, fantasy scenerio.
    So as the OP I figured I'd chime back in on my thread.

    I've done some reading into my state and county case law and have consulted two attorney friends of mine who have given me pretty solid guidance as to my original question. What they advised is likely not relevant or accurate for anyone living outside my county, so I'll withhold their comments from this thread.

    What I will say, however, is that the discussion taking place here has been very helpful. There are clearly numerous perspectives and interpretations, all of which simply represent the varying jurisdictions in which we reside.

    My biggest takeaway from this thread were the various points of view presented, which gave me great questions and conversation starters when I actually sat down with an attorney to discuss my particular concerns.

    There is no right answer; in fact, should I ever be in a situation where I am involved in a self defense shooting, everything I've been advised could go out the window, because juries are unpredictable. But the point of conversations and forums like this is not to arrive at the answer, but to expose oneself to the many perspectives and experiences that are out there.
    bmcgilvray likes this.

  7. #66
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    Could this topic ever devolve to worrisome dithering at some point?
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Further...

    As I read what you have posted, it is likely any answer I could reply with will either be insufficient for you, or beyond your comprehension.

    Grammar & spelling, snowflake.

    Get some.
    because i know the truth , i been ther done that ...

  9. #68
    Member Array glockfan23's Avatar
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    some ppl here wanna play lawyers but nobody show me yet a case ,when some one got convicted for having a MOd carry gun ...

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    If their is a use of a firearm resulting in a lawsuit, certain things have happened:

    1) Police involvement and an investigation determining, at least initially, not everthing went 100% kosher. Their will be an investigation, and the weapon will go in for testing of some kind, and it is likely that someone may examine it and say "Humm...that's odd..." at which point, more investigation will likely determine what, if any mods, were done.

    2) If their is a lawsuit resulting from a shooting, their will be allegations of negligence. SD is a perfect defense to intentionally shooting someone, and does not generate access to that lovely pile of cash your insurance company has...and in a negligence action, the insurance company wants to have access to the weapon of the guy they are protecting so they can prove that the weapon wasn't altered.

    Oh, if it was?

    If the alterations were beyond factory spec, expect that you will not be covered, because insurance covers negligence, not reckless conduct or wanton & willfull conduct.

    3) Depositions and discovery conducted by the opposing party. They will subpoena the weapon for testing and have their own expert look at it to determine if it has been altered to an unsafe state.

    Well.

    That's my take on it.
    nothing of this apply IN FLORIDA

  11. #70
    Member Array glockfan23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Self defense is a defense against intentional acts in a criminal and civil setting.

    The way to get around self defense is to assert the actions at issue were not intentional, but negligent.

    Their has to be a context for this, but in any case which is not perfect (many are not...), a modified weapon which is out of spec is a hook to use.

    In that instance, the prosecutor may charge manslaughter instead of murder, because putting on a case in which he has to show you discharged your weapon when you didn't mean to due to your weapon having X mod done to it is easier than putting on a murder case in which you would have to be show to have deliberately fired your weapon with the intent to kill someone you didn't have to or want to.

    Civily, it's simple - insurance companies pay for negligence, not intentional acts.

    As a plaintiff's attorney, I want you to make a mistake that involves someone getting a bullet. Why?

    Not because I'm a bad person (I am...) but because your home owners policy covers on "OOPS!! OH SH...!!!", not a "DIE YOU DAM CRIMINAL!!"

    Further, it's an easier case to make out, especially when you have removed safety devices or taken a firearm out of spec.

    Can it be defended against - Yes.

    Do you want to do it - No.

    Instead of playing with safeties or modifying guns, get a gun without the features you don't want and be done with it.

    Don't like a mag safety? Don't buy it with one and take it out.

    Want a better trigger? Buy a gun with a better trigger & learn to shoot properly.

    Stop playing so close to the edge and you won't get cut.

    Sorry if that offends people's sense of their second amendment rights and all that, but the real world (as much as the courts are the real world) really doesn't care very much what people think are their rights.

    Civil & criminal liability are mature concepts and mere assertions that something shouldn't be that way don't change things.

    You don't want to play the lawsuit slot machine? Stop putting in coins and pulling the lever.

    Their are plenty of weapons and configurations straight from the factory that are shootable and user friendly.

    I like a Glock 19 with a 3.5#/NY-1 trigger set up. That's a well regarded set up with a firmer break and reset with the same/slightly heavier weight than stock. It's a modification I'm not worried about...but then again I wouldn't be worried about striker fired, cocked and locked, DAO, DAK, LEM or DA/SA from a good company.

    Find one, and be done with the issue.

    Amateurs talk about how to get out of trouble.

    Professionals discuss how to never get their in the first place.
    nothing of this apply for resident in florida

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockfan23 View Post
    nothing of this apply for resident in florida
    Not remotely correct.

    What he said does, in fact, apply in Florida. And every other state.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  13. #72
    Member Array glockfan23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Not remotely correct.

    What he said does, in fact, apply in Florida. And every other state.

    Matt
    show me the real facts ,maybe he can be a lawyer in ny but in florida is a diffrent story

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Not remotely correct.

    What he said does, in fact, apply in Florida. And every other state.

    Matt
    I'm thinking it's probably not worth the effort

  15. #74
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    Back on topic people.

    This isnt about lawyers, its about mods on guns used in self defense.

    Quit the petty bickering already and get back on track.
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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockfan23 View Post
    show me the real facts ,maybe he can be a lawyer in ny but in florida is a diffrent story
    Might I suggest you obtain and read Jon Gutmacher's book? Your understanding of Florida law seems to be anecdotal rather than factual.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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