The issue with my new Sig P226R SRT - problem identified and fixed - video post 34

This is a discussion on The issue with my new Sig P226R SRT - problem identified and fixed - video post 34 within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Can you disassemble both Sigs to the point that you can simulate a reset while watching the linkage? Maybe in comparison the culprit will show ...

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Thread: The issue with my new Sig P226R SRT - problem identified and fixed - video post 34

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Can you disassemble both Sigs to the point that you can simulate a reset while watching the linkage?

    Maybe in comparison the culprit will show itself.
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Why do we think the SRT is more complicated or has more to go wrong? It could be that the SRT parts are more reliable than the standard. What I'm seeing may be no more than an out of spec part that slipped out of the factory.

    The part count is exactly the same, they're just redesigned a bit. There are have been some issues with the standard triggers also, but they are very rare, just as problems with the SRT triggers are rare.
    Like I said originally, I don't really know anything about them. I do remember a write up on them I read somewhere when they were first introduced. And they were considered " revolutionary " by the author, so it doesn't sound like something of simplicity of operation if it took all these years to come up with.
    I have always liked the Sig pistol, and used a 226 years ago overseas. They just never appealed to me as a gun I wanted to put anymore money into a than a Glock or 1911.
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  4. #18
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    Couldn't the same be said for a Glock though? It was a long time coming after the 1911.

    I don't think they worked on the mechanism for years. More likely, they only identified the marketability of it and the actual design and development may have happened pretty quickly. The SRT mechanism doesn't appear to be anymore complicated in function or manufacturing, and what they've accomplished is almost addictive.
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  5. #19
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    UPDATE 26-Dec-2011:
    Just got back from the range and ran 300 rounds through my Sig P226R Elite Enhanced. Just like the first 400, not a glitch! Never have had a glitch while shooting it - only in dry fire.

    I shot slow, DA, SA, DA/SA. I shot 100 rounds (Winchester/Walmart) of nothing but doubles and triples as fast as I could work the trigger - not a glitch. I wanted to time some splits, because I know I hit some fast ones, but the battery was dead on my timer. That won't be the case tomorrow, uhhhh, the next time.

    I love this gun; I love the SRT - one of the most natural feeling trigger responses I've shot. I'm just now starting to acclimate to the shorter trigger reset. I'm gonna try to build my rapid fire times by committing sincerely to this trigger response. That won't come without a downside. If I'm successful, I'll probably short-stroke other triggers - but I have to know if it's faster.

    My 'reliable' split times hover around 0.20 seconds but I've had 0.15 secs on good days. Can't wait to see how this plays out with the SRT. I have a theory that short resets don't necessarily speed up split times - we'll see.

    Oh, my round count for the year is now 12,200 rounds! I love to shoot, and I'm going to while I'm able and good at it. I turned 66 four days ago (if you guys take up a collection to get me a late birthday present, make it 9mm and don't get so much that it won't fit in my garage! )
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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post

    The only time I've seen the trigger issue is simulating firing in dry fire. As an engineer, this really bothers me. I'd consider it a very poor design if the short reset is relying on the jarring effect of the slide to operate. I mean linkage is linkage. It either depends on positive engagement which forces it to work at all speeds (at least in the case of a gun) or the linkage is inertially coupled such that it operates at full speed but not and hand cycling speeds. The latter would be very, very disappointing to me.
    How so?

  7. #21
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    Good question Mitchell,

    If a system is based on an inertia to work, it will be more sensitive to a number of things than a positive engagement system. An inertial based system would be more sensitive to lubricant viscosity, hence the lubricants temperature characteristics. An inertial based system would be more sensitive to drag introduced in the form of debris, even grease thickening with residue from firing. It would be more load sensitive as well, where say the slide velocity slows to a marginal level.

    A positive engagement system is far more resistant to these types of things, because it isn't relying on speed, inertia, but rather positively engaged motion - everything is physically/mechanically linked together rather than having the ability to move and react as individual components.

    Does that happen though? Well, I've now fired 700 rounds through my P226 Elite Enhanced without a hint of a glitch of any kind. I've used old, old magazines, brand new magazines and a few in between - runs like a top.

    Yet when I cycle the slide manually, I see the long reset pop up. How can that happen in a positive engagement system? It can't. I makes me think the system is based on the shock/jarring/whatever-we-want-to call-it of firing the gun. I don't believe I'd want my car to operate on that principle either.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    UPDATE 26-Dec-2011:
    Just got back from the range and ran 300 rounds through my Sig P226R Elite Enhanced. Just like the first 400, not a glitch! Never have had a glitch while shooting it - only in dry fire.

    I shot slow, DA, SA, DA/SA. I shot 100 rounds (Winchester/Walmart) of nothing but doubles and triples as fast as I could work the trigger - not a glitch. I wanted to time some splits, because I know I hit some fast ones, but the battery was dead on my timer. That won't be the case tomorrow, uhhhh, the next time.

    I love this gun; I love the SRT - one of the most natural feeling trigger responses I've shot. I'm just now starting to acclimate to the shorter trigger reset. I'm gonna try to build my rapid fire times by committing sincerely to this trigger response. That won't come without a downside. If I'm successful, I'll probably short-stroke other triggers - but I have to know if it's faster.

    My 'reliable' split times hover around 0.20 seconds but I've had 0.15 secs on good days. Can't wait to see how this plays out with the SRT. I have a theory that short resets don't necessarily speed up split times - we'll see.

    Oh, my round count for the year is now 12,200 rounds! I love to shoot, and I'm going to while I'm able and good at it. I turned 66 four days ago (if you guys take up a collection to get me a late birthday present, make it 9mm and don't get so much that it won't fit in my garage! )
    Tangle,

    My Sig Dark Elite and SRT has been flawless. Out of the box one of the best triggers around. I still say it was human error while dry firing and you short stroked it! My Sig is M&P and Glock Gen 3 reliable, and that says a ton. I would have no issues going into war with this firearm. The reset is so pure it's almost like shooting an 18+1 1911. Even the trigger and front strap serrations remind me of a 1911.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    Tangle,
    My Sig Dark Elite and SRT has been flawless. Out of the box one of the best triggers around. I still say it was human error while dry firing and you short stroked it! ...
    You don't know how much I'd like for it to be human error, but what human error could it be? It's pretty simple to rack a slide to the rear stop, release it, pull the trigger to drop the hammer, hold the trigger to the rear, rack the slide to simulate firing, then start releasing the trigger.

    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    ...The reset is so pure it's almost like shooting an 18+1 1911. Even the trigger and front strap serrations remind me of a 1911.
    Exactly my impression. Well, if the 1911 has a good trigger. Hmmm, the front strap on my P226 Elite Enhanced is checkered instead of serrated???
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  10. #24
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    Sorry guys, I think I missed your replies:

    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    How about if it's something as simple as slide velocity.
    Seems to me that's about all it can be - I just don't see how it can be so reliable firing and not operate exactly the same way dry firing - except slide velocity.

    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    Can you disassemble both Sigs to the point that you can simulate a reset while watching the linkage?

    Maybe in comparison the culprit will show itself.
    Hmmm, good thought but I don't know if that would reveal anything or not, but I'll sure give it a try.



    The curious thing about this is Sig seemed to be careful to neither deny or confirm the problem. They simply answered they go by what it does in live fire. The answer came so quickly that it seemed to me like it was a prepared answer. That suggests they know what I've seen is happening, but since it isn't a problem in live fire, they aren't doing anything about it????
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  11. #25
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    There is a comparison of parts here: Sig Sauer Short Reset Trigger (SRT) kits

    Apparently, what the SRT parts do is eliminate the reset of the FP safety and the travel needed to do so. So I am thinking that perhaps what you are seeing is normal if you are only moving the slide back far enough to move the hammer back to full-cock but not quite clearing the FP safety.

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  12. #26
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    Thanks a bunch Matt, great link!

    Reading the link, it would certainly seem that the error lies with me rather than the gun. However, I remember pulling the slide rearward to the end of travel and even doing so a bit faster wondering it it was needing a little more force or something - still got the long resets.

    In fact, I just tried this about 6 more times - I got three long resets! I consciously pulled the slide back forcibly to the end of travel. So whatever it is, it's still there.

    Here is a video of the issue:



    I thought this note in the linked reference is interesting, I have no idea what it has to do with the SRT other than the normal function of blocking/releasing the firing pin.

    NOTE: The difference between the SRT and non-SRT is not apparent unless you have the slide installed OR unless you're manually resetting the safety lever. With the slide off there's no firing pin safety spring to push down on the the safety lever so there's no safety lever reset!

    I'm not sure if he means since the safety lever won't reset, the trigger won't do a short reset, but I tried every way known to man to force the safety lever up or down, and I see no effect of the safety lever on the trigger reset length. I demo'd that in the video but edited it out for time's sake.
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  13. #27
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    There is definitely something not right with the SRT trigger reset on your P226 E2. I have a P226 Elite Stainless that I will test out tonight (dry fire). It is almost like you have some SRT trigger parts that are slightly out of spec or maybe were not properly heat-treated hardened correctly and now have been worn/rounded some with use, thus letting them slip and not engage properly. If true, then you should start seeing the issue show up more consistently even while live firing as well as you have already seen dry firing. Do you have a certified Sig Armorer in your local area that can look at your Sig and figure out what is going on? Like I was saying, I have a feeling this problem well probably progress to a point where it will happen all the time, even while live firing it. Of course, if it finally happens, Sig of course will have no choice but to have you send it in (Sig should pay shipping both ways) to be worked on under warranty.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZGlock13 View Post
    There is definitely something not right with the SRT trigger reset on your P226 E2. I have a P226 Elite Stainless that I will test out tonight (dry fire). It is almost like you have some SRT trigger parts that are slightly out of spec or maybe were not properly heat-treated hardened correctly and now have worn/rounded some with use, thus letting them slip and not engage properly. If true, then you should start seeing the issue show up more consistently while live firing as well as dry firing. Do you have a certified Sig Armorer in your local area that can look at your Sig and figure out what is going on? Like I was saying, I have a feeling this problem well probably progress to a point where it will happen all the time, even while live firing it. Of course, if it finally happens, Sig of course will have no choice but to have you send it in (Sig should pay shipping both ways) to be worked on under warranty.
    Yeah, that's what I'm concerned about - it's an indication that there is a problem developing that's gonna eventually show up in live fire. Of course as you say, Sig will have to do something about it if it shows up in live fire.
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  15. #29
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    Tangle, I'd feel the same apprehension that you do since I always get a little spooky about something that doesn't work right even once until I (or someone else) can pinpoint the cause and fix the problem.

    I've been a shade-tree gunsmith for many years, and the first thing I do with any new gun is to rip it apart down to every single part, screw and spring to put the trophy inspection on each one and do any deburring necessary to smooth rough edges - especially on any thin, stamped metal parts (like are often found in SRT assemblies) where the slightest little rough edge or lip can drag or hang-up on an adjacent part. If you're not brave enough for something like that, then I'd definitely contact Sig about the concern and have them do a once-over on it.

    Only other thought I'd have would have is perhaps a bit of factory grease in the wrong place and creating enough stickiness to cause the intermittent operation (especially in cool or cold temperature); and flushing it with oil maybe washed it out.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    Tangle, I'd feel the same apprehension that you do since I always get a little spooky about something that doesn't work right even once until I (or someone else) can pinpoint the cause and fix the problem.
    Exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    ...I've been a shade-tree gunsmith for many years, and the first thing I do with any new gun is to rip it apart down to every single part, screw and spring to put the trophy inspection on each one and do any deburring necessary to smooth rough edges - especially on any thin, stamped metal parts (like are often found in SRT assemblies) where the slightest little rough edge or lip can drag or hang-up on an adjacent part. If you're not brave enough for something like that, then I'd definitely contact Sig about the concern and have them do a once-over on it.
    I've built a number of 1911s from scratch and had a number of Sigs and one USP don't to the parts level, so I don't mind doing that, well, yes I do, I shouldn't have to, but my real concern is the warranty. If it has to go back to Sig, I'd rather it go back as an 'untouched', stock gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    ...Only other thought I'd have would have is perhaps a bit of factory grease in the wrong place and creating enough stickiness to cause the intermittent operation (especially in cool or cold temperature); and flushing it with oil maybe washed it out.
    That's a good thought too, except now the problem is back in spite of the 'washing'. I'm suspicious there's a burr somewhere ion the trigger bar or disconnector that creates a problem that shows up in the dry fire but all the 'shock' from live firing and recoil overcomes.

    It does cause some apprehension for sure. I've already acclimated some to the SRT, and had a short stroke on my longer reset H&K P30L, but my oh my do I love that P30!

    Thanks for the input!
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