Initial Range Reports/low round count range reports. - Page 3

Initial Range Reports/low round count range reports.

This is a discussion on Initial Range Reports/low round count range reports. within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by glockman10mm Does anyone here really know the number of rounds to fire thru a gun to deem it good to go? I ...

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Thread: Initial Range Reports/low round count range reports.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Does anyone here really know the number of rounds to fire thru a gun to deem it good to go? I doubt it.
    You're probably right but I do have a magic 8 ball. I keep asking it if I bought the right gun and it says "ask me again later".
    I haven’t heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    You're probably right but I do have a magic 8 ball. I keep asking it if I bought the right gun and it says "ask me again later".
    Lol, Timmy, I put about as much faith in the Magic 8 ball's opinion as some wanna be warriors round here.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  3. #33
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    mitchell-

    i think the point I, and other, are trying to make is -
    -We are saying generally when someone buys a new gun, goes to the range and shoots it, then comes home and posts about their new firearm, BY DEFAULT THIS WILL BE LOW ROUND COUNT, THE GUN IS NEW!!

    -I am not saying a firearm should not be tested, but I for one, own 1 handgun and I bought it new. I cannot afford to go put 5k rounds through it before I carry it... Eventually I will have 5k rounds through it but that comes with time and money.. I carry it now b/c it is my best option, and I feel 100% confident that if I pull the trigger it will go BANG!

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I believe the total round count thing is another one of those INet BS things where somebody somewhere " probably a gun writer" that they felt like firing x number of rounds through a carry gun was necassary, and it has now become gospel.

    Funny how people who don't want to be thought of as sheep in one regard, follow like sheep in other aspects.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  5. #35
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    It wasn't a personal attack directed to you, but in general...yes, it set me off.

    From reading the comments in this thread, it seems I and many other posters have "different ideas" on how to evaluate the reliability of weapons.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree for the most part.

    This thread is a bit of an eye opener for me, and it's showing me things in the mindset arena I'm really not liking, and it makes me wonder what in the hell people are doing when they are carrying a weapon who's job is supposed to save lives.

    If people are willing to accept such slack standards in testing, what else are they willing to compromise on?

    Training?
    Safety?

    I just don't think I am comfortable with some of the thinking I've seen expressed.
    Yes I can see how disturbing it is for you. It would be hard looking down upon the minions from such a lofty perch...

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    I came to "the gun world" in November, 2010. My first range session was the week after Thanksgiving that year.

    I obtained my Ohio Concealed Handgun License in March, 2011.

    My first "run your gun" class was about two weeks after that, in April. I've since taken more than 60 hours of paid instruction - a total of just over 80 hours or so of "professional" instruction.

    Starting from a round-count of zero (11/2010), I put over 17,000 rounds on my full-sized XDm9. She's led a hard life - marathon solo all-day range-sessions. Days after days of 600+ rounds-fired training classes. 1000 to 1500 rounds between cleanings. She's seen mud. She's seen rain sizzle off the barrel, the slide hot enough that it - not the barrel - smokes.

    I obtained my carry gun, an XDm9 3.8 Compact, in January of 2011 - she currently has somewhere around 8,000 rounds on her. About two months ago, I purchased a second XDm9 3.8 Compact to serve as my full-time range/class gun, as I am starting to progress towards more advanced pistol classes, many of which are shot either partially or exclusively from-concealment, and I did not want to put any more wear on my carry gun which has, to today, proven dead reliable.

    Am I happy that my three main pistols have proven so durable and reliable? Certainly.

    But at the same time, there's a very real reason why I purchased that second Compact for training - because no matter what, the pistol is a mechanical object made by man: and just because it didn't suffer a mechanical breakage through the first 8,000 or even 18,000 rounds does not mean that it won't disintegrate on round 8,001 or 18,001.

    At what point is the weapon reliable? Does "break in" count?

    At what point does mechanical wear becomes a concern - and just how much "reconditioning" is necessary? Are new springs good enough? or does the slide or frame need to be X-ray'ed for stress? A tired leather holster needs to be retired, and eventually, so does a car - the latter can be fully reconditioned by stripping it down to its bare bones, and building everything back up again.

    At what point should we look at just discarding one gun, and replacing it with another, simply from age and/or wear?

    I'm signed up for one of Vogel's classes this spring. I'm signed up for at least one session of Costa's. I've expressed serious interest to our local Suarez contingent, and will likely take two of their sessions this year. More than likely, I'll take at least two rounds of the beginner as well as intermediate-level one-day seminars with two of my local schools. That's probably 6,000 rounds, minimum, right there, all run in a reasonably robust manner.

    If my gun goes through all of that without a single malfunction that I didn't purposefully induce (i.e. spent brass, snap-cap, or, heck, just having made the mistake of picking up a magazine that's chocked full of mud and sticking it into the gun), does that mean that it's one round count fuller to being magically ultimately reliable? or does that mean that it's one round more worth of stress imparted to the mechanicals?

    I'll confess to putting faith in "the magical 500" - 500 rounds of my chosen SD/HD ammo, run through the gun, without major upset. That's what I've been taught, and so that, being the old-fashioned guy that I am, that's what I believe. I also change out my cars' oil every 3,000 miles/3 months, whichever first, and yes, I use top-tier stuff (quantitatively proven, for my vehicles, with UOAs). It's overkill, and I admit it.

    So I use my round-counts as an odometer of sorts. But at what point do I say that the car's "broken in?" At what point can I expect maximum performance? At what point will performance fall off due to use and age?

    I don't think that there's just one side to this equation.

  7. #37
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    One thing that did stand out when I went back and reread the thread.

    Mitchell wrote:

    To determine if your weapon is actually the uber-death-blaster you really believe it is, you have to shoot it, and shoot it hard.

    Don't baby it, use it!
    Like anything mechanical, the more you run it and the harder you run it, the more likely it is to break. So if a gun has 200 or 500 rounds through it and it is running good, then each subsequent round through the gun is one shot closer to the breaking point of something in the gun. It might be at 1000, 5000, 10000, or 20000 rds, but who is to say with each gun what that point is.

    Unless you are doing metalurgical testing and examination on the gun and all its parts, you're simply guessing anyway, so you are no better off than the fellow that ran 500 rds through the gun and brags about it on DC. It is just your thinking your method is better than the other fellows.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  8. #38
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    I disagree with the OP, by definition, if you have fired a gun 100 times without a flaw, it is “flawless” at that point. If you mean that the gun has not been tested at that point, I still disagree. Any mechanical man-made object can fail, the gun you fired 6000 times could fail the 6001st time you fire it.

    I would guess that the majority of average gun owners never put 1000 rounds through any of their center fire handguns.
    The attitude some have that you should only carry a gun you have shot 10 thousand of times and paid hundreds of dollars for training on is silly in my opinion. I’m not saying you should buy a new gun, load the magazine up and think you are ready to go, but if you take it out and it fires 100 rounds of your carry ammo (or even less if a revolver) with out issue, and you can hit what you aim at, then I see no problem depending on it to defend you.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303british View Post
    I disagree with the OP, by definition, if you have fired a gun 100 times without a flaw, it is “flawless” at that point. If you mean that the gun has not been tested at that point, I still disagree. Any mechanical man-made object can fail, the gun you fired 6000 times could fail the 6001st time you fire it.

    I would guess that the majority of average gun owners never put 1000 rounds through any of their center fire handguns.
    The attitude some have that you should only carry a gun you have shot 10 thousand of times and paid hundreds of dollars for training on is silly in my opinion. I’m not saying you should buy a new gun, load the magazine up and think you are ready to go, but if you take it out and it fires 100 rounds of your carry ammo (or even less if a revolver) with out issue, and you can hit what you aim at, then I see no problem depending on it to defend you.
    I agree with this wholeheartedly. I have to kind of chuckle at the paranoia of someone who thinks he has to run 10,000 rounds through a handgun and take tactical classes every other weekend to be able to defend himself from attack. While there is certainly nothing wrong with getting training and developing a base level of proficiency, some people seem to think that you have to go through SEAL training before you have any business carrying a firearm. Someone who can successfully present their weapon from a holster and get good hits on a man-sized target at 7 yards or so is better prepared than 90% of the population for defense against criminal attack. There are numerous accounts of regular citizens, some who only shoot casually or hardly at all, defending themselves successfully with a firearm. It's not rocket science, and I don't imagine my opponent (in the extremely unlikely event that I'll ever actually need my firearm) will be an Israeli commando or his equal. I generally carry a Glock, which I hardly need to put a million rounds through to trust, and I practice fairly regularly. I personally know police officers who don't shoot their duty guns but twice a year during training/qualification, who have successfully defended themselves in real world gunfights.

    Training is good, but the idea that you MUST have thousands of dollars in training and thousands of rounds downrange in order to successfully defend yourself with a handgun is simply elitist internet BS.

    I wonder when this 76 year old's last "tactical" class was:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW_EzglmTbk
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  10. #40
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    There is the school of thought that says you should have two copies of your normal carry sidearm. test one with 500 rounds or so, including 100-200 carry rounds, and then carry it in confidence. Use the other for training, and shoot it until something breaks - then fix it, and shoot it some more.

    Problem is - most of us have several "normal" carry guns, depending on attire. Buying a duplicate for each one can get cost prohibitive.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    People.

    Would you pronounce your new car flawless when you haven't even had it long enough to need an oil change?

    Would you get married to someone after the first date?

    No?

    Well why the hell do I keep reading how flawless people guns are when they have barely shot the, let alone carried them, practiced with them or learned how to use them for their intended use?

    I'll tell you why - because people have an absurd emotional investment in their new gun, and somehow need to convince...someone (themselves or others) they have picked up the greatest handgun on the planet.

    Your gun is not flawless because you shot it 10, 100 or 1,000 times without a failure, problem or other assorted issue.

    You gun is merely new, and for the most part, has not even reached the point at which it needs a new recoil spring, lube or cleaning.

    Issues at low round counts DO mean problems...

    However, no issues at low round counts only mean problems haven't had time to develop yet.

    A modern pistol with 1K rounds through it is still effectively a new gun.

    To determine if your weapon is actually the uber-death-blaster you really believe it is, you have to shoot it, and shoot it hard.

    Don't baby it, use it!

    If you are willing to do the work...Then brag on your iron.

    Till then...you may as well be marrying someone you don't even know.
    Well, I proposed to the love of my life after our 3rd date. We will celebrate our 45th anniversary in June.
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  12. #42
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    Although that's a bit outa the norm and could be considered a little hasty by many, myself included. Congrats to you both sir and here's to many more.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

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  13. #43
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    Vaquero,

    Don't bring real world encounters into this. I am sure that this fellow had at least 5k rounds through the gun he shot the intruder with, and had just returned from a level 27 training weekend.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  14. #44
    los
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    The solution is to achieve complete proficiency with the weapon.

    Therefore, one should also incorporate a few mandatory practice-pitches of their EDC to the target, when out at the Range.

    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by los View Post
    The solution is to achieve complete proficiency with the weapon.
    Exactly.

    Since we've bridged the discussion to training.....

    I also do not believe that an average CCW/CHL-citizen needs to achieve "Level 29 Ninjafied Tactical" skill levels, that he or she needs to spend hundreds, if not thousands, on training with "certified professionals."

    However, I do believe that there needs to be at least *some* training towards proficiency, as well as training to maintain that level of proficiency.

    Even the most casual shooter will readily realize that shooting is a highly perishable skill. Dry-fire (including manipulations), laser training, sub-caliber training (including airgun/airsoft) can all bridge the gap for live-fire, but at some point, you will have to shoot your carry gun(s), using your chosen defensive ammo, in order to maintain proficiency with that weapon.

    Similarly, I also feel strongly that anyone who is looking to carry a firearm for self-defense should look to attend at least one "single day" "run your gun" type of seminar - something that puts a bit of stress on you, to take you out of your comfort zone. Does this mean that you need to be certified ninjafied? no - it just means that you shouldn't be that poor guy who repeatedly indexes his cell phone and tries to jam it into the magwell of his slide-locked pistol, that you shouldn't be that guy who grabs a handful of shirt instead of gun, on the draw.

    It's about proficiency, and being honest with yourself.

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