Initial Range Reports/low round count range reports.

[8th ID]

Well, the OP can really be disturbed with me. I run a couple hundred rounds through a new pistol. Then I run a few boxes of my chosen carry ammo. Then it's good to go in my book. And sure, I believe in training. But we all have seen the stats on cops who are in shootouts-I think the percentage of hits are about 25%. Does anyone here read the stories from 'In the news' on this forum? Everyday there are reports of ordinary people, possibly with little or no training performing way above the 25% hit ratio.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[pirate]

The vast majority of people who are part of this fine forum have never fired a gun at another human being and have never had a weapon fired at them.........many have never even been in any type of physical "fight" as an adult. So just about everyone here with the exception of a few military members and LEO's really don't know what its like to be shot at and how they and others reacted to this extreme input. A reliable weapon and training is a good start but IMO its generally going to be what the "man" or woman is made of that counts the most when the bullets fly for real. Every thing else discussed here is totally subjective, including this post topic.

[TSiWRX]

^ Excellent post.

I can - and do - train, but at the end of the day, I'm just an average Joe civvie who has never seen the more horrible side of human nature: and yes, I am very aware of the fact that should I be unlucky enough to come face-to-face with such situations, I honestly do not know what I will do. I pray that I will have the fortitude and the abilities to prevail, but I do not know.

[pirate]

I know this is getting off base on this tread a bit but I don't think the vast majority of us will ever know.

The great combat historian S.L.A. Marshall, who was a chief U.S. Army combat historian during World War II and the Korean War. He authored some 30 books about warfare, including Pork Chop Hill: The American Fighting Man in Action, which was made into a film of the same name. He wrote that fear affects all men, even those in the most highly motivated units. Marshall found that no more than a quarter of the men in combat in WW2 actually fired their weapons on the battlefield. Religious scruple against killing was one reason. A bigger factor was shock. In one study of a division that saw heavy fighting in World War II, a quarter of the soldiers admitted they had been so scared that they vomited. Almost a quarter lost control of their bowels. Ten percent urinated in their pants.

I think that even if these statics noted above are way off, it still gives one the idea that fear has a tremendous affect on all of us and some are far better at dealing with it and being able to do the job needed to fight back against a threat. So while just bring a gun to a gun fight is first and foremost, and more importantly bring a reliable gun......even if well trained with your weapons it really may not be enough to win the fight if your not up to the test.

[peckman28]

My SIG P229 has just under 1,800 rounds through it, and it only failed once this whole time (I bought it new) because of a squib load. I've also gotten quite good at hitting what I'm aiming at with it. If someone walked up to me and told me that my gun was clearly not broken in and wasn't reliable yet, I would laugh right in their face. I trusted it by the time it reached round 500, and still do. Why do I even know the round count? Because the manual says you may want to look at replacing the recoil spring when you get around 5,000 through it. Of course, by the logic of the OP it should be more reliable than ever at that round count, but then I'd have to go through another 5,000 to make sure the new spring is reliable after I replace it, and it better be part of a week-long combat course too so those rounds can be as abusive as possible. Otherwise if someone attacks and I try to use it to defend myself I'm just not going to prevail at all.

I don't begrudge anyone having an opinion different from mine on the level of training one should have, or the round count that is ideal for a gun to be considered trustworthy. Preaching to others about it and talking down to those who don't feel they have to go as far to be comfortable is where I would draw the line. Do what you feel you should do, and understand that others are going to do what they feel they should do, whether that lines up with your standards or not.

[Harryball]

I know this is getting off base on this tread a bit but I don't think the vast majority of us will ever know.

The great combat historian S.L.A. Marshall, who was a chief U.S. Army combat historian during World War II and the Korean War. He authored some 30 books about warfare, including Pork Chop Hill: The American Fighting Man in Action, which was made into a film of the same name. He wrote that fear affects all men, even those in the most highly motivated units. Marshall found that no more than a quarter of the men in combat in WW2 actually fired their weapons on the battlefield. Religious scruple against killing was one reason. A bigger factor was shock. In one study of a division that saw heavy fighting in World War II, a quarter of the soldiers admitted they had been so scared that they vomited. Almost a quarter lost control of their bowels. Ten percent urinated in their pants.

I think that even if these statics noted above are way off, it still gives one the idea that fear has a tremendous affect on all of us and some are far better at dealing with it and being able to do the job needed to fight back against a threat. So while just bring a gun to a gun fight is first and foremost, and more importantly bring a reliable gun......even if well trained with your weapons it really may not be enough to win the fight if your not up to the test.

LT col. Grossman talks about this as well. He said when they change to Human silhouette targets in training that it made a difference.

I think you are right about the proper mindset. If you do not have the stones, it really doesnt matter what weapon you have. They only problem with this is, getting the experience means you have to shoot someone. Then and only then will you understand what it takes. That being said, it really boils down to training. It is what we default to.

The OP is correct in the assumption that to many times people feel confident is something that hasnt been tested enough. The logic is correct IMO. You run 200 rounds thru your carry weapon and you think your ready to go. In truth, you should run it thru a class and see how it performs. That is the closest you will come to understanding if the weapon you just bought will work for you....

[hardluk1]

I hope to have a new firearm fire 400 fmj of different weights with no problems . As I get close to that I will try to find a problem by holding the pistol very loosely while fireing to see if anything creeps up ,still no problems, go to my favorite carry ammo and hope I get 200 more to fire with no problems . If 100%, clean it lube it up and my new carry pistol is ready. Thats what I do with a semi-auto. I revolver and 2 semi-autos in 26 years. From that point on change recoil spring ever 1000 or 1200 rounds, check it to be sure no problems and shoot it enoungh ever couple weeks to staycomfortable with it.

[Therewolf]

The OP is correct in the assumption that to many times people feel confident is something that hasnt been tested enough. The logic is correct IMO. You run 200 rounds thru your carry weapon and you think your ready to go. In truth, you should run it thru a class and see how it performs. That is the closest you will come to understanding if the weapon you just bought will work for you....

The problem is, the Opie was ranting about a trigger question. He came unglued because I said I didn't have any feed problems in the first 150 rounds.

Serviceability and testing were never an issue in the post the Opie was referring to.

[glockman10mm]

I fired 8 cylinder fulls thru my newly aquired M10 with my handloads, and deemed it ready for carry. Not one jam.

[Tangle]

Guys, I think we're over reacting a bit. Am I to believe we can't have confidence in our guns unless we've put thousands of rounds through them or been through a class with them?

Many of us have many guns; you know what it would cost to run the thousands of rounds through them to declare them broken in and reliable?

Like someone posted, how do we know after we've declared our gun reliable, that the problem isn't going to show up the very next shot?

[NY27]

There is the school of thought that says you should have two copies of your normal carry sidearm. Test one with 500 rounds or so, including 100-200 carry rounds, and then carry it in confidence. Use the other for training, and shoot it until something breaks - then fix it, and shoot it some more.

Problem is - most of us have several "normal" carry guns, depending on attire. Buying a duplicate for each one can get cost prohibitive.

I would love to be able to do that. But it still doesn't guarantee anything. You could buy two identical firearms, the one you test with 500 rounds and start carrying could fail the very next day while the one you train with all the time can keep running. I shoot my firearms and make sure that I clean and inspect them frequently. That's about all you can do.

I have a Gen 2 19 that I changed all of the internal on just because it made me feel better. The original parts had probably well over 15k rounds. I'm sure it would have kept going, but putting all new parts in it made me feel better.

[nn]

If a person is an old hand at shooting, I'm not sure that good quality high end pistols need much break-in except enough to get the user used to shooting it; revolvers even much less maybe 2-3 cylinders.

You get a lemon, you'll know right off. I think read the reviews on gun forums and don't buy something that needs large amounts of ammo shot to make it work. Spend more money on a better gun by using the money you would have spent on all that break in ammo. If the high end doesn't work as expected, send it back and let the manufacturer fix it.

[hardluk1]

gloackman 10mm You mean tour model 10 revolver fired that many rounds with out a single lamb or stove pipe ,cooool. Got a good one. ha

nn When so many guys buy costly 1911's and then carry fmj cause they do not trust them to feed HP ammo or they say they don't need HP's cause it allready so big it make me wonder about the common sence or lack of by CC'n them. I would rather carry a KTpf-9 that never had a problem with any ammo feeding or fireing than a 1911 high dollar pistol that had issue's with hp ammo. And I did carry a pf-9 for 2 1/2 years, now a low dollar cw and cm kahrs. You do not know with pistol if it will feed everthing with out spending time and money shoot it.. Some times some ammo will not shoot but another will and theres only one way to find out.

Many of use don't have a group of carry guns. You take the time to proof it and then fire enough to stay tuned to it. I shoot mine along with others firearms every two weeks. I all way run a few mags threw my CC pistols last. A few mags full of practice ammo and one mag of carry and replace it with new. I do have mags that are mainly for carry and a couple for range time with practice ammo.. Both are kahrs so everthing feels the same . But it would not matter what brand they were and pistol. I have done this for 26 years.

[Tally XD]

I think you are right about the proper mindset. If you do not have the stones, it really doesnt matter what weapon you have. They only problem with this is, getting the experience means you have to shoot someone. Then and only then will you understand what it takes. That being said, it really boils down to training. It is what we default to.

The human being is a remarkable thing. They sometimes tend to grow "stones" they never had when it comes to saving their life. They achieve amazing things when the chips are down. Soldiers grow their stones just like anyone else. They get tossed into a battle for their life. Some make it, some don't. Training certainly helps but I think too many underestimate the power of the plain ol' "person" to persevere.

The OP is correct in the assumption that to many times people feel confident is something that hasn't been tested enough. The logic is correct IMO. You run 200 rounds thru your carry weapon and you think your ready to go. In truth, you should run it thru a class and see how it performs. That is the closest you will come to understanding if the weapon you just bought will work for you....

We also trust our lives to our automobile brakes. Most never get tested much in any kind of class. We drive our cars with confidence because of the thousands or millions that have been sold already and are working everyday for those who purchased them. Sure, some break down at the worst times. That is simply an unavoidable byproduct of error in manufacturing. That doesn't stop us from getting in our brand new car and driving across the country without entering a NASCAR trial to test our car.

[RangeDS]

[/COLOR]

Maybe a new gun that had a thousand rounds down the pipe over a few months..... But, not a new gun that had a thousand rounds run down the pipe in one or two sittings....

IMO, a weapon doesn't need to run for hours and run round after round after round to be considered trustworthy.. I mean dang man.. It's a man made object, at some point it's gonna give up the ghost just like everything else man-made. It's my contention that if you get a new auto, run three or four hundred rounds down range with it and then check it over well during cleaning and then strap it on and use it like it was meant to be used. Or, get a revolver and shoot fifty rounds to get used to the trigger and point of aim/impact and call it a day. Either way, IMO, if you can get a auto to function three or four hundred times and at a steady pace without fail, you gotta a keeper...

"it's a man made object"...good point. New gun range we opened in October as customers complain about FTE / FTF and the since they are required to use the Range ammo the blame is always on the ammo. But the ammo is made made to, whether re-loaded, from Wal-mart, Russian, Brazillian, FMJ, TMJ, etc. its' not going to be 100%, 100% of the time.