Glock once stood for uber eliability; I don't think it does presently - UPDATE in OP

This is a discussion on Glock once stood for uber eliability; I don't think it does presently - UPDATE in OP within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 No M&P in existence matches the unique blend of size, weight, balance and capacity of a G19. The only thing ...

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  1. #121
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    No M&P in existence matches the unique blend of size, weight, balance and capacity of a G19. The only thing that I would trade my G19 for is an M&P the exact size of the M&P 45 compact, in 9mm and lighter in weight. Until then, my Gen 3 G19 gets the nod.
    That was sorta poetic, my friend.
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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    ... If you want to fix the "Extractor/Recoil Spring..ect ect" problem.... Get an M&P and be done with it....
    There's a cheaper way. Keep the Glock. If it does do something it shouldn't, which seems to be rare these days, then Glock will fix it on 'their' dime.

    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    ... IMO the M&P is easily as good as any glock out there. Not hating on Glock either, heck I have three of their pistols, but again IMO, none of um are what I would consider better in anyway over my one and only M&P and like wise to be honest.
    Well, let me help you out here. How is it that APEX has been so successful with their DCEAK and RAM kits for the M&P? Because the trigger reset is a non-event and it needs some help. OTOH, Glock triggers have the best trigger reset on the market. Once it resets, it is fully engaged for the next shot, i.e. no take up. Check that out on an M&P.

    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    ... Both are excellent performers, but if Glock is gonna go changing what has been working for years. They can do it on their coin and not mine.
    S&W changed what they've been doing for years - that's how the M&P came about. I welcome Glock's gen 4 changes. All it's cost me is the price of a G17 gen 4. In fact, it didn't even cost me that, because I traded a G17 gen 3 for the G17 gen 4 and like everything about the Gen 4 better. Reversible mag release, better grip texture, and slimmer grip. What's not to like? Oh, and while I've only had the gun for a short while, I've had zero problems with it in 200 rounds.
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  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    No M&P in existence matches the unique blend of size, weight, balance and capacity of a G19. The only thing that I would trade my G19 for is an M&P the exact size of the M&P 45 compact, in 9mm and lighter in weight. Until then, my Gen 3 G19 gets the nod.
    Well that's your opinion and mine is somewhat different. Nothing wrong with you having a differing view/opinion and like wise for me. I honestly feel that the new M&P offering exceeds the Glock in most every way, at least for me that is... Again, I'm not hating on Glock; like I said earlier, I have three of their pistols and like um just fine, but IMO, the M&P FS9 and 9C are better FOR ME than any of my Glocks therefor when I want to carry a high capacity 9mm I select my M&P9c over any of my other autos. Key word there is "any".
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  5. #124
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    There's a cheaper way. Keep the Glock. If it does do something it shouldn't, which seems to be rare these days, then Glock will fix it on 'their' dime.


    Well, let me help you out here. How is it that APEX has been so successful with their DCEAK and RAM kits for the M&P? Because the trigger reset is a non-event and it needs some help. OTOH, Glock triggers have the best trigger reset on the market. Once it resets, it is fully engaged for the next shot, i.e. no take up. Check that out on an M&P.


    S&W changed what they've been doing for years - that's how the M&P came about. I welcome Glock's gen 4 changes. All it's cost me is the price of a G17 gen 4. In fact, it didn't even cost me that, because I traded a G17 gen 3 for the G17 gen 4 and like everything about the Gen 4 better. Reversible mag release, better grip texture, and slimmer grip. What's not to like? Oh, and while I've only had the gun for a short while, I've had zero problems with it in 200 rounds.
    Good points all of um, I'll give ya that, but the trigger reset for the average Joe is more hype than a necessity. In a critical situation the shooter will not feel such a fine adjustment on any pistol I dare say.

    Also, I'd wager that any M&P can be customized to perform just as well as any Glock and so on.. You say Glock and I say M&P, but what really needs to be stated here is that both are excellent combat handguns and their operation and performance can change drastically depending on the shooter.
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  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    There's a cheaper way. Keep the Glock. If it does do something it shouldn't, which seems to be rare these days, then Glock will fix it on 'their' dime.


    Well, let me help you out here. How is it that APEX has been so successful with their DCEAK and RAM kits for the M&P? Because the trigger reset is a non-event and it needs some help. OTOH, Glock triggers have the best trigger reset on the market. Once it resets, it is fully engaged for the next shot, i.e. no take up. Check that out on an M&P.

    Tangle you know I love you buddy, but here are a couple things to think about......

    1. The best polymer trigger reset on the market is the Walther PPQ. Believe it.....
    2. I don't need my family or myself to be stuck with a Gen 4 Glock "doing something it shouldn't" when I need it.
    3. The reason the DCEAK is so popular is that Glock users have been converting to M&P by the millions. If you spent the last 20 years being used to an really loud audible reset click then not having such a pronounced one would be a change. Why is the 3.5 pound connecter been such a big hit, how about the extended slide release\ mag release? I don't see plastic sights catching on do you? Lets take it further with every other product that has been produced for Glock to make up for what some would call, "needed upgrades". Hell, lone wolf has come up with a whole new frame for Glocks because of the grip angle. The point is that gun owners are a bit like golfers. Many folks just want to buy a bunch of crap that may or may not help the end resault.

    I own both and love both firearms, and frankly it comes down to the fact that Glock originally came out with an amazing firearm twenty plus years ago. They have done little to improve it and some folks don't think they need to do anything to improve it. I love what S&W, Walther,HK, Springfield have done with competitiveness and we the people have benifited.
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  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    slimmer grip. What's not to like?
    Slimmer grip. The G17/22 et. al. feel like toothpicks in my hand. Reducing the grip is not going to help. Of course, I fit the G21/30 grip just fine - like it was made for my hand. I really like my G21 & G30, but would not be at all opposed to selling my G22 2 gen as it really does not fit me - and it has 2 pre-ban mags - at least that was a selling point when I bought it. :)
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  8. #127
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    Tangle you know I love you buddy, but here are a couple things to think about......

    1. The best polymer trigger reset on the market is the Walther PPQ. Believe it.....
    2. I don't need my family or myself to be stuck with a Gen 4 Glock "doing something it shouldn't" when I need it.
    3. The reason the DCEAK is so popular is that Glock users have been converting to M&P by the millions. If you spent the last 20 years being used to an really loud audible reset click then not having such a pronounced one would be a change. Why is the 3.5 pound connecter been such a big hit, how about the extended slide release\ mag release? I don't see plastic sights catching on do you? Lets take it further with every other product that has been produced for Glock to make up for what some would call, "needed upgrades". Hell, lone wolf has come up with a whole new frame for Glocks because of the grip angle. The point is that gun owners are a bit like golfers. Many folks just want to buy a bunch of crap that may or may not help the end resault.

    I own both and love both firearms, and frankly it comes down to the fact that Glock originally came out with an amazing firearm twenty plus years ago. They have done little to improve it and some folks don't think they need to do anything to improve it. I love what S&W, Walther,HK, Springfield have done with competitiveness and we the people have benifited.
    1. That's very, very subjective. For example, I like Glock triggers as much as I like 1911 triggers only because I have trained with Glock triggers so often that the pull and reset have become second nature to me.

    2. I have no experience with the Gen 4, but I do remember that you're experience with it has been less than stellar. However, the Gen 4 Glocks are going through the same process that M&P's went through when they came out, as M&P's were less than stellar when they were introduced as well.

    3. The reason the DCAEK is so popular is that the stock M&P trigger is horrid. The pull is inconsistent and mushy. The reset is never in the same place each time, and it's difficult to discern which click is the reset making trigger reset training much more difficult. I'd have no problem carrying an M&P as long as it had the DCAEK, but the M&P offers no real advantage over a proven Gen 3 Glock 9mm.

    4. Customization... Glocks are obviously incredibly popular, so many businesses offer many different customization options. Shooters who have spent a lifetime shooting 1911 pistols may want the 1911 grip angle on their Glock because it's going to be very difficult to change thirty years worth of shooting habits. After 50,000 rounds through Gen 3 Glocks, I've never had a single issue with the slide release / mag release, and I don't know anyone who carries a firearm without upgrading to night sights, so the plastic sights issue is a non-factor to me. (I never use the slide release anyways, as it's incredibly difficult to perform fine motor skills when you've lost your fine motor skills).

    With the exception of the trigger, I have nothing against M&P's. They are good guns which become top of the line guns with the DCAEK upgrade. In fact, it's the only other type of gun I'll carry that isn't my Gen 3 Glock 19.

    Anyways, cheers.
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  9. #128
    Senior Member Array Vaquero 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    Well that's your opinion and mine is somewhat different. Nothing wrong with you having a differing view/opinion and like wise for me. I honestly feel that the new M&P offering exceeds the Glock in most every way, at least for me that is... Again, I'm not hating on Glock; like I said earlier, I have three of their pistols and like um just fine, but IMO, the M&P FS9 and 9C are better FOR ME than any of my Glocks therefor when I want to carry a high capacity 9mm I select my M&P9c over any of my other autos. Key word there is "any".
    Actually, it's not opinion. It's fact. Which M&P matches the G19 in size, weight, balance and capacity? Only the M&P 45 compact approximately matches the G19 in size and balance, but is quite a bit heavier and not available in anything but .45 ACP.
    The one S&W product that comes really close to the G19 specs is the SD9, which is actually a really good pistol except for the trigger. If I could get an APEX for an SD9, I'd buy another in a heartbeat. I just don't care for long, mushy triggers.

    Not hating on M&P, either. I love my M&P 45 full size, but it did need an APEX sear to give it a decent trigger. I don't care for the .45 Glocks much.
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  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    1. That's very, very subjective. For example, I like Glock triggers as much as I like 1911 triggers only because I have trained with Glock triggers so often that the pull and reset have become second nature to me.

    2. I have no experience with the Gen 4, but I do remember that you're experience with it has been less than stellar. However, the Gen 4 Glocks are going through the same process that M&P's went through when they came out, as M&P's were less than stellar when they were introduced as well.

    3. The reason the DCAEK is so popular is that the stock M&P trigger is horrid. The pull is inconsistent and mushy. The reset is never in the same place each time, and it's difficult to discern which click is the reset making trigger reset training much more difficult. I'd have no problem carrying an M&P as long as it had the DCAEK, but the M&P offers no real advantage over a proven Gen 3 Glock 9mm.

    4. Customization... Glocks are obviously incredibly popular, so many businesses offer many different customization options. Shooters who have spent a lifetime shooting 1911 pistols may want the 1911 grip angle on their Glock because it's going to be very difficult to change thirty years worth of shooting habits. After 50,000 rounds through Gen 3 Glocks, I've never had a single issue with the slide release / mag release, and I don't know anyone who carries a firearm without upgrading to night sights, so the plastic sights issue is a non-factor to me. (I never use the slide release anyways, as it's incredibly difficult to perform fine motor skills when you've lost your fine motor skills).

    With the exception of the trigger, I have nothing against M&P's. They are good guns which become top of the line guns with the DCAEK upgrade. In fact, it's the only other type of gun I'll carry that isn't my Gen 3 Glock 19.

    Anyways, cheers.
    I guess that pretty much says it.

    Hawk,
    Just a couple of things. First, the DCEAK costs about what $90 to get the M&P trigger to work better - not as good as a Glock trigger but better than the stock M&P trigger. If you want to change the Glock trigger, say to a 3.5# connector, it's $25 and for that you can even get a over-travel control.

    If reset isn't a problem, why are so many people buying the APEX kits?

    The LW aluminum frame has the same grip angle, at least the same mag channel angle. It would have to or the mag lips would be at the wrong angle. If people are going to the LW frame, it's mostly for competition - it's gonna be heavier, etc. Which raises the question, if M&Ps are the way to go, why are so many people buying LW frames? Why not just buy an M&P?

    I own both Glocks and M&Ps and I like the Gen 4s better than any of them. I realize you had a bad copy of a gen 4, but that was then and this is now - the gen 4s aren't like yours. There are more and more reports of thousands of flawless, enjoyable rounds fired by happy gen 4 owners. The problems are resolved; and Glock is fixing problems for the owners that bought Gen 4s before all the fixes were in place.

    I realize that many have had problems with late production gen 3s and gen 4s, but all that's pretty much behind us. My gen 4s are the only guns that can pry a Hk or Sig out of my holster for carry.
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  11. #130
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    Well, I like my Gen 2 19. It's better than the Gen 4, and MP put together. Why? Because I said so.

    That's about what it amounts to.
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  12. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    Actually, it's not opinion. It's fact. Which M&P matches the G19 in size, weight, balance and capacity? Only the M&P 45 compact approximately matches the G19 in size and balance, but is quite a bit heavier and not available in anything but .45 ACP.
    The one S&W product that comes really close to the G19 specs is the SD9, which is actually a really good pistol except for the trigger. If I could get an APEX for an SD9, I'd buy another in a heartbeat. I just don't care for long, mushy triggers.

    Not hating on M&P, either. I love my M&P 45 full size, but it did need an APEX sear to give it a decent trigger. I don't care for the .45 Glocks much.
    I got whatcha saying , but IMO the M&P9c is a better match for the G19 and it beats the specifications for the 19 in some areas and just misses by a tad in others.

    M&P9c: over all length = 6.7" Weight, = 21.7 barrel length = 3.5". with the flush mag in and 13 rounds of 9mm it stands @ a Height of = 4.375". Take the same pistol and slap the standard full size mag in and you got 17 + 1 rounds.... I don't know, but it seems kinda even to me as far as 9mm goes.. Anyway, I'm not trying to convert anyone. I made my conversion a few months back and I'm content and please with my decision.. Personally I'm glad you like your Glock and are proud of it, that's how it should be IMO... I own too many different pistols to tout one brand or platform over an other. I was just making small talk and meant no disrespect to the Glock crowd, IMO, we're all brothers in arms.
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  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Well, I like my Gen 2 19. It's better than the Gen 4, and MP put together. Why? Because I said so.

    That's about what it amounts to.
    Hey! what's up with the "like" button on your post. I was trying to give ya alike for the Glock praise, but couldn't find it...LOL anyway, good one Gman..
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  14. #133
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    Well, the Pink Lady and I went shooting today. First chance we've had in months, due to weather and closure of our shooting spot. We took all of our Glocks, the 21, the 26, and two 19's (one standard and one EXO). The test fire dates (at least on the 9mm guns) were Sep 2010, Oct 2010, and March 2011. They all have the ejector with part number 336.

    When I shot them, none of the brass hit me, but one of them (she thinks it was the G26) threw a casing behind me and hit her.

    When she shot them. Every one of them threw casings at her, at least 2 rounds for every 10 rounds fired. The G21 hit her on top of the head a couple times, hit her in the middle of the glasses, more toward the left eye, and then threw one back and gave her a burn from the casing on her left cheek between the corner of her mouth and her chin. She refuses to shoot the G21 again. The G26 was the other that she says hit her on top of the head (more than the 19's did), but she likes the 26 better than the 19's as do I. We are both more accurate with it.
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  15. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    1. That's very, very subjective. For example, I like Glock triggers as much as I like 1911 triggers only because I have trained with Glock triggers so often that the pull and reset have become second nature to me.

    2. I have no experience with the Gen 4, but I do remember that you're experience with it has been less than stellar. However, the Gen 4 Glocks are going through the same process that M&P's went through when they came out, as M&P's were less than stellar when they were introduced as well.

    3. The reason the DCAEK is so popular is that the stock M&P trigger is horrid. The pull is inconsistent and mushy. The reset is never in the same place each time, and it's difficult to discern which click is the reset making trigger reset training much more difficult. I'd have no problem carrying an M&P as long as it had the DCAEK, but the M&P offers no real advantage over a proven Gen 3 Glock 9mm.

    4. Customization... Glocks are obviously incredibly popular, so many businesses offer many different customization options. Shooters who have spent a lifetime shooting 1911 pistols may want the 1911 grip angle on their Glock because it's going to be very difficult to change thirty years worth of shooting habits. After 50,000 rounds through Gen 3 Glocks, I've never had a single issue with the slide release / mag release, and I don't know anyone who carries a firearm without upgrading to night sights, so the plastic sights issue is a non-factor to me. (I never use the slide release anyways, as it's incredibly difficult to perform fine motor skills when you've lost your fine motor skills).

    With the exception of the trigger, I have nothing against M&P's. They are good guns which become top of the line guns with the DCAEK upgrade. In fact, it's the only other type of gun I'll carry that isn't my Gen 3 Glock 19.

    Anyways, cheers.
    You are being pretty subjective too don't you think?
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  16. #135
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    You are being pretty subjective too don't you think?
    Of course, all of what we are discussing is pretty much just opinion.

    Note: Except for the part where I said the stock M&P trigger is horrid. That is fact! I even pulled my M&P 40 out of the safe and gave it a few trigger pulls to confirm!
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