Question about the legality on the 3.5lb disconnector on carry glocks.

This is a discussion on Question about the legality on the 3.5lb disconnector on carry glocks. within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think it makes an unintended discharge more likely for me, so I left both my carry Glocks stock. I don't think the NY1 or ...

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Thread: Question about the legality on the 3.5lb disconnector on carry glocks.

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    I think it makes an unintended discharge more likely for me, so I left both my carry Glocks stock. I don't think the NY1 or NY2 trigger are a good thing because they make it too hard to hit what one is shooting at - I tried the NY1 and didn't like it at all. But the stock trigger works great for me. I've shot a Glock 34 with the lighter trigger and liked it a lot, but the stock trigger works just fine and there is no question going to be raised if it's stock.

    That said: Remember, in a self defense shooting case you admit going in you shot and/or killed the "bad guy" (who was just turning his life around) going in. At that point you are guilty unless you can prove you qualify for the self defense exception. The burden of proof is on you, the defendent, at that point. The prosecution's task is to convince the judge or jury you don't qualify for the self defense exception. Your task is to prove you do. Anything that makes it harder to prove you qualify for the self defense exception is not going to help.

    Where it could get sticky is if the gun goes off pointed at someone because the trigger is too light, adreneline is acting, fine motor control is radically reduced, and you didn't intend to shoot. That's exactly what happened to a guy who cocked his double action revolver instead of leaving the hammer down so he would have had to fire it double action with much greater trigger pull - it fired with much less trigger pull, killed the guy it was ponted at. The shooter went to jail.

    There is some controversy about the case, Ayoob tried to get his lawyer to use self defense as the reason for the shooting, said they guy shot by accident right when he should have fired on purpose, but the guy's lawyer told him to claim he fired by accident. Accidental killing of an assailant wasn't a successful defense. Don't know if Ayoob's argument would have won because the judge made them choose in advance. Can't both say it was an accident and self defense. The guy's lawyer made a mistake, his client went to jail. But, it all happened because the gun went off too easy. Oh well ... you pick your pony, you take your ride.

    Fitch
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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array TonyDTrigger's Avatar
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    I recently read in a magazine about a case that involved such issue. The person was not convicted criminally, but the judge allowed the civil trial to move forward just because the defendant had modified the trigger (made it lighter).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyDTrigger View Post
    I recently read in a magazine about a case that involved such issue. The person was not convicted criminally, but the judge allowed the civil trial to move forward just because the defendant had modified the trigger (made it lighter).
    Can link the story, or provide more specific details?

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array hardluk1's Avatar
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    The connector by it self is not a plus, it will take away from a good trigger .It will add a bit of creep to your trigger and depending on the pistol may only lower the trigger pull 1/2lb as stated about. The stock trigger is fine for carry as is. Spend more time on shooting and picking up the short reset quickly. Get inside your glock and polish every metal trigger part you can with some 1000grit wet dry paperthats been oiled . That will help more than connector change.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array TonyDTrigger's Avatar
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    Just found it ..the magazine is called "The complete book of handguns 2012" by Massad Ayoob. The article starts on page 36, this example is actually on page 39. The article is called "Courtroom Minefield"

    This is a quote:

    "Case Five, an unintentional shooting of a suspect by an officer with a .45 caliber Glock 21 pistol, the court ruled that the lawsut against the officer and the department could not be dismissed because the officer had replaced the standard service connector with a 3.5 connector, lowering the pull weight below factory spec. This I submit, is a good preview of how other courts will look at all shootings involving Glocks with too-light trigger pulls"

    Another quote from the same article:

    "An amazing number of Glock owners do not realize that Glock company policy states emphatically that the 3.5/4.5-pound connector is not to be installed in a gun intended for service or self-defence use, and it is only for recreational shooting."
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  7. #21
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyDTrigger View Post
    Just found it ..the magazine is called "The complete book of handguns 2012" by Massad Ayoob. The article starts on page 36, this example is actually on page 39. The article is called "Courtroom Minefield"

    This is a quote:

    "Case Five, an unintentional shooting of a suspect by an officer with a .45 caliber Glock 21 pistol, the court ruled that the lawsut against the officer and the department could not be dismissed because the officer had replaced the standard service connector with a 3.5 connector, lowering the pull weight below factory spec. This I submit, is a good preview of how other courts will look at all shootings involving Glocks with too-light trigger pulls"

    Another quote from the same article:

    "An amazing number of Glock owners do not realize that Glock company policy states emphatically that the 3.5/4.5-pound connector is not to be installed in a gun intended for service or self-defence use, and it is only for recreational shooting."
    An unintentional shooting of a suspect by a police officer who is using a 3.5lb trigger is in no way the same as a civilian within the rights of the law shooting someone in self defense with a 3.5 lb trigger. Accidentally shooting someone implies that they should not have been shot in the first place. I am not surprised that Glock company policy emphatically states that you should not modify their firearms, pretty standard.

    I will grudgingly admit that having a 3.5 modified trigger is probably not going to win you jury points, but it's just so sad that we have to even be concerned about something like that, instead of just the facts of what really happened.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyDTrigger View Post
    Just found it ..the magazine is called "The complete book of handguns 2012" by Massad Ayoob. The article starts on page 36, this example is actually on page 39. The article is called "Courtroom Minefield"

    This is a quote:

    "Case Five, an unintentional shooting of a suspect by an officer with a .45 caliber Glock 21 pistol, the court ruled that the lawsut against the officer and the department could not be dismissed because the officer had replaced the standard service connector with a 3.5 connector, lowering the pull weight below factory spec. This I submit, is a good preview of how other courts will look at all shootings involving Glocks with too-light trigger pulls"

    Another quote from the same article:

    "An amazing number of Glock owners do not realize that Glock company policy states emphatically that the 3.5/4.5-pound connector is not to be installed in a gun intended for service or self-defence use, and it is only for recreational shooting."
    Aside from the fact that the case involves civil liability in an accidental shooting, were there any footnotes in Ayoob's account referencing the actual case?

  9. #23
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    if they found fault in the trigger then they will find fault in a light or laser or even new grips.... there is no case history of any of that happening, I would thing about things like kill and the punisher on the firearm though

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Remember Ayoob is from the socialist NE and embodies a lot of 1970's liberal nonsense into some of his advice. As long as your not in one of the socialist states where you're guilty until proven innocent and it's a justified shoot you're good to go.

    Now someone show me just one case where a person who lightened the trigger pull on their firearm was convicted of ? for that act.
    Mas hails from the "socialist NE", as do I. Neither of us is a socialist or even leans that way in a stiff breeze. You're painting with an extremely broad brush and although I can't argue about your experience, Mas Ayoob's curricule vitae extends well past four pages, and that's without listing his published articles. He has vast courtroom as an accredited expert witness. So much for his creds, here's what he has to say about his experience working to defend people on trial when a light trigger pull was made an issue by the prosecution.

    Cross-posted from THR:
    Hi, folks. One of the participants in this thread requested that I drop by.

    One critical point absent from this discussion thus far is the relatively high likelihood of a false allegation of hair trigger negligent discharge brought by unscrupulous prosecutors or plaintiffs’ counsel.

    These things are more common than most people realize. In an unmeritorious prosecution, the strategy is to charge Manslaughter on a negligent discharge theory instead of Murder with an intentional shooting theory, because a prosecutor out to win political points knows the former is a slam-dunk compared to the latter. To win a Murder conviction, the prosecutor has to convince the jury that a decent citizen just like them turned into a cold-blooded executioner. That’s a tough sell. For a Manslaughter conviction, all he has to do is convince them that, just like any other human being, you the defendant were reckless and negligent in just one instance.

    In a civil lawsuit, the plaintiff’s counsel well knows that if he portrays you as deliberately and cold-bloodedly shooting his poor, misguided burglar client, he’ll miss the deep pockets he’s after. That’s because any homeowner’s liability insurance policy expressly excludes a willful tort, i.e., a deliberate harmful act committed by the policyholder. It will only pay off for negligence. Thus, the unmeritorious argument that you accidentally shot the man you were holding at gunpoint, due to recklessly pointing a hair trigger gun at him.

    The very light trigger, well known in the world of marksmanship to be prone to premature discharge, facilitates either false allegation and plays into the hands of those who want to ruin you.

    Actual “hair trigger AD” cases I’ve been involved with include Crown v. Gossett (cocked S&W Model 10, defendant convicted of Manslaughter in one trial and acquitted in the next); NY v Magliato (cocked Colt Detective Special, defendant convicted of Depraved Murder, reduced to Manslaughter upon appeal, served several years hard time); and MI v. Chuck Chase (cocked S&W Model 15, defendant acquitted of Manslaughter at trial). Civil cases of this nature can be ruinous. I was involved in one in Pennsylvania (cannot give name at this time) in which defendant AD’d a High Standard .22 target pistol, killing his antagonist. He barely escaped indictment for Manslaughter, but lost his business and most of his savings when he chose to settle the resultant lawsuit.

    In the above cases, the High Standard had a trigger pull of approximately 2.5 pounds. I do not have time to dig the other cases out of the files, but for frame of reference, a random K-frame S&W from my gun safe averaged 3 lb.13 oz. in single action, and a random D-frame Colt averaged 3 lb. 10 oz., both on a Lyman digital trigger pull gauge.

    False allegations of hair trigger AD that I’ve been involved in include GA v. Crumbley (S&W Model 586), KY v. Rucker (SIG P226), and FL v. Alvarez (S&W Model 64). Crumbley was no-billed by the grand jury, and Rucker and Alvarez were both acquitted at trial, charged with Manslaughter.

    For those who think only convictions matter, consider that Luis Alvarez spent 15 months under the Sword of Damocles awaiting trial, and another two months in trial. His defense cost a deep six figures. Anyone who suggests “so what, he was acquitted” should keep that in mind.

    The poster who was unable to find anything on FL v. Luis Alvarez can find a detailed account of the trial written by his attorney Roy Black in the autobiographical book “Black’s Law,” available at most libraries or at Barnes & Noble or Borders in the legal section, or on Amazon.

    Personal experience in the above cases, plus the vast collective and institutional experience of law enforcement in prohibiting “hair triggers” on service and off duty weapons, is what convinced me to recommend against light triggers on defense guns.

    I hope this has been of some use.

    Cordially,
    Mas
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  11. #25
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    thanks guys thats what I was thinking. I asked one of the local sheriffs I know. He asked my why I put it in, I told him, he said leave it in. And is right I checked the trigger pull with it in. And it was around 5.24-5.5 lbs on average. I'm ok with that so I'm leaving it in. thanks guys.

  12. #26
    Member Array gorilla45's Avatar
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    I put the connector in after about 1500 rounds and yes I like it better. this isn't my first glock

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Mas hails from the "socialist NE", as do I. Neither of us is a socialist or even leans that way in a stiff breeze. You're painting with an extremely broad brush and although I can't argue about your experience, Mas Ayoob's curricule vitae extends well past four pages, and that's without listing his published articles. He has vast courtroom as an accredited expert witness. So much for his creds, here's what he has to say about his experience working to defend people on trial when a light trigger pull was made an issue by the prosecution.

    Cross-posted from THR:
    Now show me where I called him a socialist. Please show me. What I said was "Ayoob is from the socialist NE and embodies a lot of 1970's liberal nonsense into some of his advice." You may be impressed with his credentials, many people are. Others not so much. He has IMO a history of pandering to the $$$$. And well known in the courts is thst for every "expert" you get to testify one way you can find an expert to testify the opposite.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Mas hails from the "socialist NE", as do I. Neither of us is a socialist or even leans that way in a stiff breeze. You're painting with an extremely broad brush and although I can't argue about your experience, Mas Ayoob's curricule vitae extends well past four pages, and that's without listing his published articles. He has vast courtroom as an accredited expert witness. So much for his creds, here's what he has to say about his experience working to defend people on trial when a light trigger pull was made an issue by the prosecution.

    Cross-posted from THR:
    Every one of these cases involved accidental discharges, and the calamity which ensued. I get it...shoot someone you didn't intend to shoot, expect severe consequences. Stretching the circumstances of the above cases to the trigger pull of a PD handgun is just that, a stretch.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    If the issue at hand was an accidental discharge or some event; civil or criminal, that was based upon a trigger that was too easy to pull there may be an issue. I have changed my disconnect and it has improved my grouping at the range. I have not measured the trigger pull force but when I pull it would be of a force sufficient to pull an 5 or 8 lb trigger. Affirmative defense in a justified shooting " the defendant pulled the trigger because his life was threatened".

    Whether it was easy or hard would make no difference in that event.

    If I put a lighter spring on my gas pedal I am not found more guilty of speeding.


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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    Who's gonna know the difference?
    If you ever have to shoot you will not be going home with that fire arm it will be in custody until they are ready to return it and in that time it will be gone over very well.
    Keep in mind these are the same people that made it a crime to change a grip or a stock on a weapon just because of the way it made it look.

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