Just some thoughts about the .357 sig vs .40 S&W

This is a discussion on Just some thoughts about the .357 sig vs .40 S&W within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by claude clay and down the road will be more events that shine light on other shortcomings of cal x. so the debate ...

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Thread: Just some thoughts about the .357 sig vs .40 S&W

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    and down the road will be more events that shine light on other shortcomings of cal x.

    so the debate continues
    ------------
    better an individual should find the gun(s) that fit them and practice to be as good as they can with them.

    there will always be situations where someones choice did not fill the needs as well as if they had a 'x' instead
    and 'y' or 'z' in slightly different circumstances.

    ...even Zorg's gun failed in the end.
    First, who is Zorg?

    But yes, there will always be more events which will highlight the shortcomings of something or other. That's why they are called shortcomings!

    However, the Winchester Silvertip fails every single test protocol that the FBI set up to test ammunition, so you'd expect it to fail in the real world more often than not, just as it did in the Miami shootout.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

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  3. #62
    Member Array Eichorn's Avatar
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    Source One:

    As Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Dove's 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt’s right lung was collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Of his many gunshot wounds, this first was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s eventual death.
    The part in bold seems to be a problem of penetration (as has been said), not one of accuracy.

    Also-

    "Matix moved from his own car to Grogan/Dove's car after receiving a major head wound." -from Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    ...NOW YOU CAN'T TELL ME A HEAD SHOT WOULD NOT HAVE STOP THIS GUN FIGHT AT ONE ROUND OF GG'S AMMO!
    That very criticism was directed at the four Chattanooga officers that fired 50 shots resulting in 20 hits to stop a BG. Some of the officers (not involved in the shooting) in sarcasm, said, "Wait, you mean a head shot would have stopped him!" Of course they were actually pointing out that all of that was covered in their training. And, if the head had been available and if there was the opportunity to take the head shot, they would have.

    But yes, I can tell you head shots don't always stop a gunfight. I even gave a real world example where it didn't. A .357 mag bullet entered the back of the head of a fleeing BG, traveled through his head and made a bulge at the forehead - the man sat up and said his head hurt.

    I read a documentary in Reader's Digest about a construction accident where a steel tamping rod was blown from the blasting hole and struck the worker under the chin and came out the top of his head and he was still giving orders.

    I've read too many actual accounts where head shots didn't work. Mostly head shots do work well, but not always, and a head shot is not always available. Jim Cirillo talks about shooting a BG in the head with his service revolver and it didn't even slow the guy down. Subsequent shots to the torso stopped the guy and upon investigation, they found the bullet slid over the skull, under the scalp, and came out the back without ever penetrating the skull.

    Well, we might conclude that such things happen. Not Cirillo. He developed a bullet that absolutely would not slide off the skull. If he had been using the bullet he developed, the bullet would have penetrated the skull.

    Again it shows placement isn't everything. Bullet performance plays a huge role as also pointed out in the Miami/FBI shootout.
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  5. #64
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    Oh lord I'm going to make up a big o' bowl of popcorn! It's been quite a while since I've seen a no-kidding caliber 'discussion' in the classic style!

    But seriously, some great points here. Another thing to consider when recounting the legend and lore of the police shootout is that the bad guys may be a bit more hopped-up than in the average street scenario--adrenaline and/or drug levels might be as big a factor in who doesn't go down as is firepower, and possibly a much bigger factor than in the one-on-one holdup. I wouldn't count on it, but I'm just saying it seems likely than an active shooter vs dozens of LEOs may be much more formidable a target than non-active shooter vs apparently harmless civilian.

    But, if there's one single thing these stories do for me besides entertain, is to reinforce the training I've had--which instills the notion that you don't take a couple of shots then holster or your weapon or otherwise go out of 'ready', thinking the fight is over. It could be a good while before there's any evidence you hit your target, and you can't assume that just because you know you did, the fight is over. I assume this is good advice, having no experience to the contrary.

    Caliber choice is truly at the bottom of the list of SD concerns for me, however--it hardly ranks at all. I'd feel comfy with any 9, 40, of 45 I knew I could hit with. My far bigger concern is that of not being alerted and prepared in time to even use a weapon at all, other than maybe a set of car keys.
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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bongo Boy View Post
    ...Caliber choice is truly at the bottom of the list of SD concerns for me, however--it hardly ranks at all. I'd feel comfy with any 9, 40, of 45 I knew I could hit with...
    You just stated your choice and in fact limited your choice to three calibers. Caliber is not at the bottom of the list; it's generally at the top. When one goes to buy a SD gun, he rarely asks, which can I hit the best with, but almost always ask which is the best caliber. Now we seem to be going from a specific caliber being more effective than another to thinking there's a round we can shoot best with. I suspect the vast majority could shoot better and faster with 9mm than .40 or .357 sig or .45.

    I think we've bought into this caliber doesn't matter thing way too much. Terminal ballistics do matter or we wouldn't have settled on the four major calibers. It seems rather presumptuous to think that all bullets/loads are created equal and one bullet can have no significant greater effectiveness over another. The FBI learned this lesson in the Miami shoot out. I dare say if the 9mm round that stopped short of the heart had been a .357 sig, things would have turned out entirely differently.

    When I read of ballistics test that show only the .357 sig and 10mm broke the plates in a gel shoot, repeatedly, it tells me right away that not all rounds have the same effectiveness.
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  7. #66
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    In my opinion a .357 sig is a .40 shell with a 9mm bullet compared to a .40 having a .40 shell with a .40 bullet, I think i'll stick with my .40 far as my choice out of these two bullets. I love the power in the .40 and the bullet size helps pack a strong punch on impact.

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    Let's face reality when we talk about shot placement. Weather is a 40 cal or 357 sig when shooting at a paper target bad guy head shots are easy. When being shot at ,well placed shots at a bad guy are not very practical . If you are brave enough (or silly enough) to stand up and get into a good stance and take a well aimed shot while rounds are coming at you, your dreaming. And anything other than center mass shot placement is wish full thinking. It happens so fast. I was attacked by a dog and it was all I could do to get my weapon drawn . So I want a round that does center mass destruction. Such fits both 40 cal m 350 Sig descriptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Here in Chattanooga, four Chattanooga LEOs shot some 50 rounds at an armed BG. He was hit about 20 times with .45 ACP before they were satisfied he was stopped.
    40 percent hits ,,,,, sounds pretty weak to me ,,,,
    I would put these guys on INACTIVE DUTY for more
    range time with their firearms. Missing three times for
    every two hits would be unacceptable for me even if
    I had a 2 inch barrel.

  10. #69
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    [QUOTE=Bullet1234;2165576]40 percent hits ,,,,, sounds pretty weak to me ,,,,
    I would put these guys on INACTIVE DUTY for more
    range time with their firearms. Missing three times for
    every two hits would be unacceptable for me even if
    I had a 2 inch barrel.[/QUOTE
    The FBI states about a 20% hit rate in a gun fight. I would like to think I could do better but when shots are being returned its a whole different ball game.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet1234 View Post
    40 percent hits ,,,,, sounds pretty weak to me ,,,,
    I would put these guys on INACTIVE DUTY for more
    range time with their firearms. Missing three times for
    every two hits would be unacceptable for me even if
    I had a 2 inch barrel.
    Let me know what you think about it, AFTER, you have been in a gun fight. I betcha your range average drops dramatically when the bullets fly both ways.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Cool

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    We all have to go out and get a 357sig. The ammo price will then fall due to the economy of scale.

    When will someone neck down the 10mm case to .355? I'm waiting for the 45 to get stretched to 10mm length, and then maybe necked down to 40.

    Meanwhile, I think bullet weight creates the momentum for penetration. If the Miami FBI had been shooting 147, or even 124gr, that first shot might have reached the heart, and we wouldn't be having much of a discussion.
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  14. #73
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Let me know what you think about it, AFTER, you have been in a gun fight. I betcha your range average drops dramatically when the bullets fly both ways.
    Agreed.

    Isn't it amazing how people automatically assume that a gunfight is easy, like it's no different than being at the range?

    It reminds me of nearly every SD shooting article I've ever read where shot placement wasn't either straight in the forehead or straight in the heart; there are always a bunch armchair quarterbacks who say something like this, "Wow, why did he shoot him in the abdomen? He obviously needs more practice."

    One of things I realized in Suarez's Force on Force class is that when we identify a threat and realize we are being drawn down on, we tend to autofocus on the weapon and shoot at it. This means that the first shots were always hitting around the waist and moving upwards as the BG brought his gun up, basically like zipper shooting.

    Just my .02.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  15. #74
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    There are tons of ego on the line with ammo choice. I believe the 357 SIG was designed to duplicate the 357 Magnum ballistics police learned to count on. The feeling was the 357 Magnum hit like a lightning strike. Basically , some wanted something familiar.

    The current 40 S&W has a fine track record too, as does the current 45 ACP and 9mm options.

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