The G22 Gen 4 is one of the best things I’ve done – but not what you’re thinking…

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Thread: The G22 Gen 4 is one of the best things I’ve done – but not what you’re thinking…

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array wormy's Avatar
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    My Gen 4 22 is PERFECT!
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Or perhaps you are in agreement with his latest opinion and want to jump on board... Having different opinions and even changing one's opinion is fine, but when one has Tangle's stellar reputation it can become confusing and questionable at times.
    Stellar reputation? When did I get that?

    I wasn't aware I have different opinions nor am I aware that I've changed my opinion(s). By posting good and positive things about a different gun doesn't mean anything changed about previous guns I've posted about. There are lots of great guns on the market today, just as there are lots of makes and brands of cars. Saying something good about a diverse variety of guns or cars doesn't mean the latest review negates all previous reviews. Focusing only on a 'favorite' make or brand as the ultimate, as if all the other models could be discontinued, would be misleading.

    One might interpret posts that are time related as a change of opinion where they are actually a reflection of new developments. E.g. At a point in time recently, Glock was not producing the same reliable guns that they once were, so I started a thread dealing with that issue. At the time of the post that wasn't an opinion, it was fact.

    However, as time passed and with continued research, I began to see that Glock was resolving the Gen 4 issues as reflected in new production guns, and the problems of 'pre-fix' guns were being fixed. So instead of leaving a post that reflected a situation that either no longer existed or was close to being corrected, I updated my thread to reflect the progress that had been made. That seems like the honest thing to do. But, that wasn't changing an opinion, that was simply recognizing that Glock was resolving the problem.

    To emphasize that Glock is now producing top quality guns again, I started a thread to reflect an updated situation.

    I'm not a single type or brand loyalist. I have a hard time deciding which gun I'm gonna carry for the day, much less through a whole week. The reason is there are a lot of great guns available today and I like a lot of them! Too many in fact.

    And, you may have missed the point of this thread. It isn't so much about the Gen 4 as it is about the caliber. It really isn't about the caliber either. It's actually about a change in recoil disclosing some bad technique(s) that were not showing up at the 9mm level. I used the Ernst Langdon example to emphasize it happens at the top levels, and that it was a change in recoil that disclosed the weakness in technique. I think I could have said exactly the same thing about a Sig 226 9mm and Sig 226 .40 cal. That's why I included the phrase in the title, "....but not what you're thinking."

    But in my case, since I was interested in the gen 4 Glocks, as the new kid on the block, the G22 gen 4 made sense since I could compare the G22 to the G17. I didn't mean the G22 gen 4 was the best thing, or best gun but rather changing to the .40 cal. round. Maybe I should have said switching to a .40 cal was the best thing, etc., but that would have place the focus on the caliber instead of the change in caliber disclosing a slump in technique.
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  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Stellar reputation? When did I get that?

    I wasn't aware I have different opinions nor am I aware that I've changed my opinion(s). By posting good and positive things about a different gun doesn't mean anything changed about previous guns I've posted about. There are lots of great guns on the market today, just as there are lots of makes and brands of cars. Saying something good about a diverse variety of guns or cars doesn't mean the latest review negates all previous reviews. Focusing only on a 'favorite' make or brand as the ultimate, as if all the other models could be discontinued, would be misleading.

    One might interpret posts that are time related as a change of opinion where they are actually a reflection of new developments. E.g. At a point in time recently, Glock was not producing the same reliable guns that they once were, so I started a thread dealing with that issue. At the time of the post that wasn't an opinion, it was fact.

    However, as time passed and with continued research, I began to see that Glock was resolving the Gen 4 issues as reflected in new production guns, and the problems of 'pre-fix' guns were being fixed. So instead of leaving a post that reflected a situation that either no longer existed or was close to being corrected, I updated my thread to reflect the progress that had been made. That seems like the honest thing to do. But, that wasn't changing an opinion, that was simply recognizing that Glock was resolving the problem.

    To emphasize that Glock is now producing top quality guns again, I started a thread to reflect an updated situation.

    I'm not a single type or brand loyalist. I have a hard time deciding which gun I'm gonna carry for the day, much less through a whole week. The reason is there are a lot of great guns available today and I like a lot of them! Too many in fact.

    And, you may have missed the point of this thread. It isn't so much about the Gen 4 as it is about the caliber. It really isn't about the caliber either. It's actually about a change in recoil disclosing some bad technique(s) that were not showing up at the 9mm level. I used the Ernst Langdon example to emphasize it happens at the top levels, and that it was a change in recoil that disclosed the weakness in technique. I think I could have said exactly the same thing about a Sig 226 9mm and Sig 226 .40 cal. That's why I included the phrase in the title, "....but not what you're thinking."

    But in my case, since I was interested in the gen 4 Glocks, as the new kid on the block, the G22 gen 4 made sense since I could compare the G22 to the G17. I didn't mean the G22 gen 4 was the best thing, or best gun but rather changing to the .40 cal. round. Maybe I should have said switching to a .40 cal was the best thing, etc., but that would have place the focus on the caliber instead of the change in caliber disclosing a slump in technique.
    My only point is the fact that on 1-25-2012 you started a thread that dogged glock pretty good. On 2-4-2012 you started two threads that pretty much reverses your opinion. I suppose epiphany's do happen...
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post

    And, you may have missed the point of this thread. It isn't so much about the Gen 4 as it is about the caliber. It really isn't about the caliber either. It's actually about a change in recoil disclosing some bad technique(s) that were not showing up at the 9mm level. I used the Ernst Langdon example to emphasize it happens at the top levels, and that it was a change in recoil that disclosed the weakness in technique. I think I could have said exactly the same thing about a Sig 226 9mm and Sig 226 .40 cal. That's why I included the phrase in the title, "....but not what you're thinking."

    But in my case, since I was interested in the gen 4 Glocks, as the new kid on the block, the G22 gen 4 made sense since I could compare the G22 to the G17. I didn't mean the G22 gen 4 was the best thing, or best gun but rather changing to the .40 cal. round. Maybe I should have said switching to a .40 cal was the best thing, etc., but that would have place the focus on the caliber instead of the change in caliber disclosing a slump in technique.
    Tangle, (as well as you other guys who have had the same experiences)

    What specifically did you find that you were able to cheat on/get away with with the lighter recoiling caliber that you weren't with the "heavies"? I'm just wondering what it was about your grip, squeeze, stance, etc that made such a difference so that I can watch out for these things myself. Thanks in advance.

    -Russell
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    My only point is the fact that on 1-25-2012 you started a thread that dogged glock pretty good. On 2-4-2012 you started two threads that pretty much reverses your opinion. I suppose epiphany's do happen...
    I noticed that too and was confused. Apparently Glock was able to salvage it's reputation and implement 'changes' saving the Gen4 line within the course of 12 days since your previous thread...

    My guess is it just means you put a few hundred rounds through 2 Gen4 Glocks you own without a problem, and are now satisfied with the state of the Gen4 line.

    Thank God you didn't have a FTF in one of them, or I'm sure there would be a thread about the Gen4 Glocks being doomed.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    My only point is the fact that on 1-25-2012 you started a thread that dogged glock pretty good. On 2-4-2012 you started two threads that pretty much reverses your opinion. I suppose epiphany's do happen...
    It reflects the dynamics of a changing situation. The first post was probably a bit late, but I thought was appropriate given what we/I knew at that time. It was a heads up to those that might be considering Glocks at that time.

    There were still problematic guns in circulation when I posted the first thread. And, there was some kind of decline in Glock's component design, perhaps QC or overall design that people needed to be aware of. But that wasn't my opinion, that was what was being discovered.

    Hence I posted the heads up. And I think everything I posted was accurate, except maybe the time frame was further ahead than I thought it was.

    It could have been months later before Glock started turning things around, but as it turned out, they had pretty much turned things around. That didn't mean that all problems in all guns had been fixed. It just meant that Glock had fixes in place to resolve know issues at that time. However, there would still be many Glocks in stock that didn't have the latest fixes in them. And from a number of posts, we see that some are getting these guns and are still facing problems with them.

    But even before the thread had run a week, I updated it based on new status. So now we kind of had both - a heads up that one could get a problematic Glock, but OTOH, it was beginning to appear that Glock has the fixes in place and the newer guns would perform differently than the problematic ones.

    The two conditions co-existed and I presented it that way.

    There was no epiphany required, just keeping up with where Glock was. I decided to buy Gen 4 Glock and see for myself. I was willing to get the gun, discover any problems, and work with Glock to resolve them. As it turns out, so far anyway, I have had no problems with two late production gen 4 models. That's first hand experience with two essentially randomly selected gen 4 Glocks.

    When I coupled my experience with two gen 4s with reports by other gen 4 owners, I realized Glock had turned this thing around much faster than I anticipated. So, it was logical to report this in another thread to emphasize that Glock resolved the issues much quicker than anticipated. Although there are some that would disagree that Glock has the problems resolved at this point in time.

    It was more a matter of timing than anything. If the Glock problems had persisted for a month or so, the timing would have been different and the 'confusion' might have been lessened. But hey, I'm glad Glock got the issues resolved quicker than I anticipated they would.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DustyBottoms View Post
    I noticed that too and was confused. Apparently Glock was able to salvage it's reputation and implement 'changes' saving the Gen4 line within the course of 12 days since your previous thread...

    My guess is it just means you put a few hundred rounds through 2 Gen4 Glocks you own without a problem, and are now satisfied with the state of the Gen4 line.

    Thank God you didn't have a FTF in one of them, or I'm sure there would be a thread about the Gen4 Glocks being doomed.
    Did you actually read the thread? It doesn't sound like you did. Did you read my posts where I defended Glock and clearly stated that they would get their problems resolved? That was before I bought my two Glocks!

    And, no, if I had, or if I do have a problem with either, I won't claim that dooms Glock and in fact, I've never even hinted at such a thing. My position has always been that Glock is having problems, but they will resolve them just like most other gun manufacturers have fixed their problems.

    You didn't read the thread did you? I know you didn't because if you had you couldn't possibly come to the conclusion you jumped to.

    And no, Glock didn't salvage it's reputation in 12 days, nor did they solve their problems in 12 days. As I had predicted from the start, Glock will resolve the issues. But at that time it did not appear they were there yet.

    As soon as I saw how much things had changed, I realized Glock was much further along than I thought. I was glad to see that.

    Maybe you should better inform yourself of the facts before you accuse.
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  9. #23
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    And BTW, what does either your or Bubba21s post have to do with recognizing some bad habits had crept into technique?
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  10. #24
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    I have to say something here. Even if Tangle is changing his mind, or jumping fences, isn't that part of the human process of continued learning and discovery? I believe that from time to time, we all have had to backtrack on our original thinking.
    I believe it shows an objective mind, which is a good thing to have.
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowbait View Post
    Tangle, (as well as you other guys who have had the same experiences)

    What specifically did you find that you were able to cheat on/get away with with the lighter recoiling caliber that you weren't with the "heavies"? I'm just wondering what it was about your grip, squeeze, stance, etc that made such a difference so that I can watch out for these things myself. Thanks in advance.

    -Russell
    You pretty much nailed it. It was basically too much relaxation. That's pretty much what Ernst related to me as well. He said something to the effect that the recoil on a 9mm is so tame that you can get by with a lot that you can't on heavier recoiling rounds.

    My grip wasn't quite right, the force in my hands wasn't quite right, and the rigidity wasn't there. Also, I had drifted out of my natural position a bit and the gun wasn't coming back from recoil in alignment like it should. All kind of minor things, but they all seem to go together, i.e. you start doing one, you start doing the others too - maybe there's a mental link or something.
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    No I did read the thread. You are defending Glock,especially at the end, which made me wonder why the hell you posted it in the first place...

    My point, and probably 21bubba's as well, is that before getting all excited and becoming another internet "boy who cried wolf", you could just relax and not post.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I have to say something here. Even if Tangle is changing his mind, or jumping fences, isn't that part of the human process of continued learning and discovery? I believe that from time to time, we all have had to backtrack on our original thinking.
    I believe it shows an objective mind, which is a good thing to have.
    I appreciate that Gman. But the two posts in question wasn't about changing my mind. Although like you point out, changing one's mind can be a good thing. But in the case of the threads, I was disappointed. At no time did I believe Glock would abandon the gen 4 or that it couldn't or wouldn't be fixed. When I posted the first thread, I didn't realized how far Glock had already come.

    It's not an opinion that Glock had some serious issues with the gen 4s, it's a well known fact. I just posted where I thought we were, and was delighted to discover in about 2 weeks after the first post that things were further along than I thought.

    I don't know that that means Glock is out of the problematic arena yet; we still have the longer term durability as an unknown.

    But I certainly agree with what you posted, change is a part of life.

    BTW, I meant to reply to one of your posts and I can't remember which thread it was in, but you said a Glock is hard to beat. I think so too. I like so many guns and appreciate each of them for what they are, but at the end of the day, it's like you say, it's hard to beat a Glock.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DustyBottoms View Post
    No I did read the thread. You are defending Glock,especially at the end, which made me wonder why the hell you posted it in the first place...

    My point, and probably 21bubba's as well, is that before getting all excited and becoming another internet "boy who cried wolf", you could just relax and not post.
    The better question is why do you even care, and/or why is this a big deal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    The better question is why do you even care, and/or why is this a big deal?
    Yeah, good point. It's Superbowl Sunday!

    My apologies Tangle.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I have to say something here. Even if Tangle is changing his mind, or jumping fences, isn't that part of the human process of continued learning and discovery? I believe that from time to time, we all have had to backtrack on our original thinking.
    I believe it shows an objective mind, which is a good thing to have.
    I totally agree with this statement we all learn and progress, including myself. I think the main question a few folks have, is that these posts look a little odd with regards to timelines and the quick history of "ship jumping" in previous posts. i.e Sig P250, The All World Defense of Kimber Mimber etc.....

    I think some of this is learning with a mixture of money and time on Mr. Tangle's hands... LOL..... Last time I checked, there is nothing wrong with that. I am curious to what he stumbles onto next week. I hope you know I am just giving you a hard time buddy!

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