Why put so much effort into making gun parts fit so precisely?

[mlr1m]

I see this all the time when related to defensive type weapons. You take a firearm that functions flawlessly and start changing out parts to make them fit with the precision of a Swiss timepiece.

Why does a person take a weapon designed function under adverse dirty conditions and hit a man sized target at 5-25 yards using any ammo you might feed it and turn it into a tight fitting firearm that can hit a gnat at 50 yards but will jam when using non spec ammo or when dirty?
They forget that maybe the designer actually meant for the weapon to be so loose fitting that a grain of sand could not stop it from operating. Do you really need a precision fitting 1911 that can hit flies at 50 yards? One that fits so tightly that it couldn't rattle even after 20,000 rounds have been put through it?

I have seen numerous firearms improved to the point that they are super accurate precision arms. To get there they traded reliability and the ability to quickly do repairs and keep it in action.

Michael

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[JD]

Well, there is a fine line between tight enough to produce desired results and a gun that won't run. Often times that line can get blurred or flat our stepped on.

Sometimes just "hitting a man sized target" isn't enough for a desired result and some agencies/persons can justify the need for pin point accuracy. As far as quick repairs to keep in action, most don't need that as it is quicker to just grab another gun than be sitting at a bench trying to replace a part.

I've seen a good many "tight" 1911s function very well with a variety of ammo. Ammo that is out of spec in certain areas will cause any gun to choke.


I've even seen them shoot dirty...

[mlr1m]

Sometimes I believe that we spend to much time trying to turn a Bowie knife into a scalpel and vise versa is all. That sometimes a person needs to realize that he needs two tools instead of one ill suited hybrid.
Its like the folks that claim the AK-47 was a poorly designed ill fitted firearm. Some like myself believe it to be a perfect design exactly because of those things.

Michael

[JD]

Sometimes I believe that we spend to much time trying to turn a Bowie knife into a scalpel and vise versa is all. That sometimes a person needs to realize that he needs two tools instead of one ill suited hybrid.
Its like the folks that claim the AK-47 was a poorly designed ill fitted firearm. Some like myself believe it to be a perfect design exactly because of those things.

Michael

And some people like Hi Points...

[lordofwyr]

In a life or death battle, I want a weapon that fires every time I pull the trigger, no matter what the conditions, including being dropped in the mud, sand or water.

If I was hunting ducks, a Holland and Holland custom weapon with Swiss Time Piece construction might be just fine.....No, on second thought...not a chance. If I had the money to spend on that I would never take a chance of dropping it in the mud or in a metal John Boat.

Against humans and charging elephants, I want absolutely no doubt that the weapon will function flawlessly, and those guns always seem to tend to rattle just a bit because they are designed to function when dirty.

[HotGuns]

Why put so much effort into making gun parts fit so precisely?

It's a peace time luxury.

If it doesnt work at the range, it's no big deal.

If it doesnt work when you need to, it's a big deal and possibly your last.

[alien319]

I enjoy fne firearms as well, but if its going to hurt your feelings when you shoot it, ten its not worth the money. I also believe in the AK, but I also believe in the M16/M4, M14 as well as all of the US military weapons. That precision has helped many of our brothers and sisters win important battles and firefights. As far as handguns go, unless it is a TARGET firearm, then it needs to be able to function when dirty,cold,hot, oily, dry, crap ammo. That's it, reliability.

[Elk Hunter]

I understand what you are saying, but I believe many of the problems come from people who should not be making modifications, muff a mod and turn a good gun into an expensive hammer.

Additionally, I doubt very many of the people reading this will ever be in a gun fight. If they are, it likley will be in the Wally World parking lot not crawling through some mud pit or in their home even if their home is a pit I hope they keep their trusty defensive guns clean and functioning. I suggest their tight fitting gun will work just fine.

[JohnLeVick]

Interesting thread. "Tight" need not mean "unreliable." A properly fitted, "tight" 1911 may in fact be more likely to run well when dirty than a loose one will, since dirt has a hard time getting into the spaces where it can cause malfs. I recall initially feeling a bit queasy about my first Les Baer gun, and clean or dirty, it has yet to hiccup after about 1500 rounds, and it's still tight, and I've let it get very dirty.

AKs don't necessarily work well dirty because of overall looseness, but because they are made for a round with a heavily tapered case, and typically have chromed chambers and bores and often, fairly sloppy chamber dimensions. (Okay, so the chamber is technically "loose.") A good AK locks up pretty tightly and has reasonably tight gas system tolerances, but with its direct impingement system, doesn't have to be too precise, by design.

[Eaglebeak]

Maybe a better wording would be "tighter tolerances" since all the pieces of an AK or SKS do fit precisely - there's just a lot of air-space between them

Hypothetically, a straight, precision bored/rifled barrel that's well bedded and has minimal whip (or whip compensated by its length) should fire very accurately as long as something holds the breech firmly closed at the moment of firing - regardless of how "sloppy" it may get during the cycling process after the bullet has all but left the barrel. All the rest of the mechanics only need to be good enough to reliably cycle and fire the rounds.

The AK's slightly lesser overall accuracy compared to the AR was more an attribute of less precision barrel bore and inconsistent rifling (which greatly varied between manufacturers) instead of its loose and simple action. However, the AK continues to prove it's much superior reliability (from the jungles to the deserts) in adverse, dirty conditions when it will still be firing long after the AR platform has locked up with only half as much contamination.

I love my Colt "Python" which is truly a precision watch, but it will start dragging very quickly with just minimal fouling or a few grains of blown sand. So when I'm thinking about my life on the line in any conditions, I'll take the slight trade in overall accuracy and rely on my sloppy old Colt 1911 Government model instead.

[yooperdug]

Well said Elk Hunter,you stole the words right outta my pie hole!

[Chuck R.]

My Baer Concept V has just shy of 30K through it and still no rattle, my Colt Gold Cup starting rattling at just over 7K. Both were/are accurate and reliable.

Here’s a test that I did with my “overly” tight Baer Stinger on a bet:







I dunked it in my pond, swished it around some, and fired a mag through it without an issue. And this was after putting approximately 200 rounds of lead SWCs through it doing drills. I gun that’s built right CAN be tight and reliable. The problem comes in when you want: tight, reliable, and inexpensive.

Chuck

[Yankeejib]

And some people like Hi Points...

Your fault. You let them keep posting.

Look ma. No "creative workarounds".

[deadguy]

I prefer spending an extra $2k on a gun that is built by someone who obsesses over accuracy and reliability. Guaranteed 5-shot groups of <1.5" at 50 yards with .45acp. Not to mention the gun is test fired with HUNDREDS of rounds, not 1 or 8 before leaving his shop.

I could spend less on a rattler and and be more than happy, but I want this particular smith's product and I am willing to spend the $ for it and the peace of mind that I don't have to count rounds and report "flawless" every 100 or so rounds.

Not sure I will waterboard it like the other poster did his Stinger but I'm sure it will be able to handle it.

[alien319]

Interesting thread. "Tight" need not mean "unreliable." A properly fitted, "tight" 1911 may in fact be more likely to run well when dirty than a loose one will, since dirt has a hard time getting into the spaces where it can cause malfs. I recall initially feeling a bit queasy about my first Les Baer gun, and clean or dirty, it has yet to hiccup after about 1500 rounds, and it's still tight, and I've let it get very dirty.

AKs don't necessarily work well dirty because of overall looseness, but because they are made for a round with a heavily tapered case, and typically have chromed chambers and bores and often, fairly sloppy chamber dimensions. (Okay, so the chamber is technically "loose.") A good AK locks up pretty tightly and has reasonably tight gas system tolerances, but with its direct impingement system, doesn't have to be too precise, by design.

I agree except that AK's do not have a direct impingement. They are piston operated. Sorry... I had to. But you are correct and the "fabled stories" of the AK's not being able to jammed by dirt and muck are false. I have seen them jam, albeit not as easy as say the AR platform



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