Ok, guys somebody talk to me about the .357 sig....

This is a discussion on Ok, guys somebody talk to me about the .357 sig.... within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If 357sig was a lot cheaper, MANY more would be shooting it. I know I would be. It is a great cartridge. The manufactures need ...

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Thread: Ok, guys somebody talk to me about the .357 sig....

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array High Altitude's Avatar
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    If 357sig was a lot cheaper, MANY more would be shooting it.

    I know I would be. It is a great cartridge.

    The manufactures need to drop the price with the thought that volume will go up. Waiting for the volume to go up, then dropping the price is not going to happen.

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  3. #32
    Member Array Aaron1100us's Avatar
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    I pay the same for 357 SIG that I do for .40 S&W, $18 for 50 rounds. Not too bad. I wish .40 was $10 for 50 like it was 10 years ago.

    Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk

  4. #33
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    Funny how the debate over the .357Sig often revolves around cost of the round and the need for it compared to other existing cartridges.

    I look at it from a weapons package view. I carry a G32 which is a 21oz gun (empty wt) with a capacity of 14rds of .357Sig in a concealable but yet controllable weapon platform. It's a great firepower:weight ratio for everyday CCW carry. I use G31 15rd mags for spares. I'd love to carry a 10mm with full loads but I mostly need a compact and controllable everyday CCW gun.

    When it comes down to what I carry for self-defense, the added ammo cost (within reason) is not a determining factor.

    I wouldn't be comfortable practicing with 9mm +p+ in a compact 9mm all the time. With a .357Sig, you practice with what you are going to carry since the guns are built for those pressure levels. I have not priced 9mm +p+ ammo but I think they would be pricey to practice with.

    I don't think the .357Sig will ever be extinct as the case is derived from the .40SW and the bullets of .357. Not really out of this world base components.

    For those of you converting G23s with a G32 barrel, I believe that it can't be done with some older G23s. I can't recall details but the Glocktalk forum has info.

    I put in a Wolff recoil spring assembly in my G32 to help buffer the slide better on the gun. Also has a stainless steel rod too.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Forget all this talk about using a glock to defile the 357Sig. Use the gun it was made for, Sig p229.


    Any idea what my carry is? And has been for about 13 or 14 years.
    I'll take a wild shot in the dark, pardon the pun, that you carry a Sig P229 in .357 ?
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    .357 Sig; the other 9mm
    The only thing they have in common is the bullet diameter. Couldn't we say the same thing about the .357 magn.?

    And wouldn't the 10mm be the other .40 cal?
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasgo View Post
    Funny how the debate over the .357Sig often revolves around cost of the round and the need for it compared to other existing cartridges.
    Well cost is an issue, perhaps more for some than others. But we compare all rounds to contemporary rounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasgo View Post
    ...I look at it from a weapons package view. I carry a G32 which is a 21oz gun (empty wt) with a capacity of 14rds of .357Sig in a concealable but yet controllable weapon platform. It's a great firepower:weight ratio for everyday CCW carry. I use G31 15rd mags for spares. I'd love to carry a 10mm with full loads but I mostly need a compact and controllable everyday CCW gun.
    I agree exactly, but Vaquero 45 does make some excellent points about the 9mm in +P and +P+. I don't know how the +P+ compares to .357 sig, there's that comparison thing again, but I doubt it's up there with the .357 sig, but I really don't know.

    But, if it were essentially the same round, or close enough, then one would have essentially a .357 sig in a 9mm round and gain two rounds in the case of a full size gun. But again, I kinda doubt the 9mm +P+ is close enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasgo View Post
    ...When it comes down to what I carry for self-defense, the added ammo cost (within reason) is not a determining factor.
    Agreed, but when you shoot that ammo it becomes a significant factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasgo View Post
    ...I wouldn't be comfortable practicing with 9mm +p+ in a compact 9mm all the time. With a .357Sig, you practice with what you are going to carry since the guns are built for those pressure levels. I have not priced 9mm +p+ ammo but I think they would be pricey to practice with.
    I thought that too at first, but the 9mm and .40 glocks have the same recoil spring. The Gen 4 9's and .40's have different recoil springs. So if one wanted to shoot +P+ in a 9mm one could get a Gen 4 spring for a .40 and put it in a gen 4 9mm - I think. They may not be interchangeable.

    But as you point out, there may be other issues. The .357 barrel is basically a .40 cal barrel with a thicker wall. That makes for a more rigid and stronger barrel. However, I don't know if the .40/.357 chambers are different than the 9mm or not and that might be the weak link in the chain; then again it might not be.

    But that's why I started this thread - to get all these great thoughts!
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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    Here is a great source of information about the 357sig...

    HandGunInfo.com: SIG357: Pete's 357 SIG Caliber Page
    Hey thanks Sig35seven, clever name. I was a little slow replying, but I did check out the link. I didn't see a whole lot there except links to other forums etc. I bet I'm missing something???

    Oops, never mind I got it.
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  9. #38
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    FWIW, Cheaper than Dirt has Federal 9mm +P+ Sig JHP for $17.49/50, which would come to $349.80 and of course there would be shipping on top of that. I'd have to pay $340/1000, and that includes shipping for .357 sig FMJ. But the difference is one is JHP and one is FMJ.

    I just happened upon the CTD site, +P+ might be available for less from other sources.

    Oops, update: I just discovered I can get 125 gn .357 sig for $300/1000 or $330 including shipping.
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  10. #39
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    .357 Sig vs. .40 caliber performance

    There are two common methods for measuring ballistic performance of handgun ammunition. The first is to measure muzzle velocity and calculate muzzle energy based on bullet weight. The second is to fire into gelatin blocks and measure depth of penetration and bullet expansion. The first method involves using the muzzle energy number to predict how the bullet will affect a human target. The second method involves measuring the dimensions of the hole made in a simulated human target.

    I tend to favor the second method, as I believe the objective of firing at a human to stop his attack is to make a large hole in him, and the gelatin test measures that more directly. So I compare calibers and ammo by going to the testing websites of ammo manufacturers, such as Winchester:

    http://www.winchester.com/Products/l...n-testing.aspx

    When you compare the Winchester Ranger in .357 Sig with the Winchester Ranger in .40 S&W you see the following:

    .357 Sig 125 grain, V = 1350 fps, Penetration = 12.5 inches, Expansion = 0.59 inches

    .40 caliber 180 grain, V = 1070 fps, Penetration = 14.8 inches, Expansion = 0.67 inches

    The heavier .40 caliber Ranger seems to offer superior penetration and expansion to the lighter and faster .357 Sig. This is why I have never been too interested in buying a .357 Sig gun and have three .40 caliber guns. I don't see the advantage of the .357 Sig.
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    If the same force that causes support plates to break when shooting into gelatin blocks is the one that makes the .357 Sig a more effective stopper than .40, then you have solved the age old question of which is better.....slow and heavy or fast and light? One would be silly to carry a low capacity .45 ACP, with its typical anemic energy figures of less than 400 ft. lbs. of energy (230 grains @ 875 fps) vs. a higher capacity .357 Sig with 583 ft. lbs. of energy (125 grains @ 1450 fps).
    One can't say it necessarily proves anything, except it exhibits the same ballistic characteristic of the 10mm and no other round tested did. Should that just be ignored? By the same logic, we don't need .40 cal either.

    I don't buy the anemic thing any more. Anything that can do the damage a .45/.40/.357/9mm bullet can isn't anemic. Handgun rounds may not stack up to long gun rounds, but that doesn't make a handgun round anemic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    ...From your answers to my questions, I find it odd that you are asking people about .357 Sig. Seems like you know quite a bit already, and are determined to get one.
    I know a thing or two about bullets, but certainly not everything. I wanted to know is what other people know about the round and their experiences. I wanted to know what they thought about whether the .357 Sig is going to be around awhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    ...Congrats on your new pistol!
    Haven't got one yet - still in the thinking/researching phase. May not ever have one, but likely will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    ...BTW, the 9BPLE Federal 115 grain +P+ was used by both the Border Patrol and Illinois State Police with good results for years and years.
    Don't both the Border Patrol and Illinois State Police carry the .40 S&W now?


    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    ...Doing a little research, I found that most .357 Sig defensive/duty ammo is NOT loaded to 1450 fps, the magic number that made the .357 magnum so effective in the 125 grain load.

    Federal HST .357 Sig 125 grain = 1360 fps. LE - Tactical HST
    Speer Gold Dot .357 Sig 125 grain = 1350 fps. Detail Page for Part # 23918
    Winchester Ranger-T .357 Sig 125 grain = 1350 fps. http://www.winchester.com/Products/l...s/default.aspx
    Corbon DPX .357 Sig 125 grain = 1350 fps. 357 Sig 125gr DPX | CORŽBON/Glaser Self Defense | Dakota Ammo

    Not very impressive compared to my Federal 9BPLE 115 grain bullet at 1300 fps. I'm not going to switch to .357 to get 9 more grains and 50 fps more velocity.
    I think it's impressive, the HST 125 gn @ 1360 fps has 19% more energy and 14% more momentum than the 9BPLE. Not a huge difference but certainly significant.

    You missed a couple of rounds from Corbon; I didn't check any others:

    From the Corbon website Self Defense JHP:
    –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
    SD357SIG125/20 357 Sig 125gr JHP 1425fps/564ftlbs 4.0
    –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
    SD357SIG115/20 357 Sig 115gr JHP 1500fps/575ftlbs 4.0
    –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

    Notice the 125 gn velocity - the same 125 gn bullet weight and very close to the same velocity (25 fps difference) as the 125 gn .357 magnum you referred to as the effective .357 mag loading.

    Then take a look at that 115 gn spec - 1500 fps! It has 33% more energy and 15% more momentum than the 9BPLE 115 gn bullet at 1300 fps.

    Actually, those two rounds listed above have more energy than any of the Corbon .357 mag rounds.

    I'm not trying to be difficult, as I referred to your points about the P+/+P+ as excellent in a previous post. But the 9mm +P+ is clearly no match for the .357 Sig at maximum loadings available. However, I'm not so sure I'd carry the max load in a .357 Sig so the difference between what I might carry and the 9mm +P+ might not be quite so far apart - more like 20% more energy rather than the 33%. But I do have the option.

    And I'm not saying that energy is the ultimate performance parameter, but it does play a role.
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  12. #41
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    The only flaw in the gelatin test is that it has no bones.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by pogo2 View Post
    There are two common methods for measuring ballistic performance of handgun ammunition. The first is to measure muzzle velocity and calculate muzzle energy based on bullet weight. The second is to fire into gelatin blocks and measure depth of penetration and bullet expansion. The first method involves using the muzzle energy number to predict how the bullet will affect a human target. The second method involves measuring the dimensions of the hole made in a simulated human target.

    I tend to favor the second method, as I believe the objective of firing at a human to stop his attack is to make a large hole in him, and the gelatin test measures that more directly. So I compare calibers and ammo by going to the testing websites of ammo manufacturers, such as Winchester:

    http://www.winchester.com/Products/l...n-testing.aspx

    When you compare the Winchester Ranger in .357 Sig with the Winchester Ranger in .40 S&W you see the following:

    .357 Sig 125 grain, V = 1350 fps, Penetration = 12.5 inches, Expansion = 0.59 inches

    .40 caliber 180 grain, V = 1070 fps, Penetration = 14.8 inches, Expansion = 0.67 inches

    The heavier .40 caliber Ranger seems to offer superior penetration and expansion to the lighter and faster .357 Sig. This is why I have never been too interested in buying a .357 Sig gun and have three .40 caliber guns. I don't see the advantage of the .357 Sig.
    Then in another gel test by Ammo Lab, the .357 sig and the 10mm were the only ones that broke the top and bottom plates of the jig.

    Plus, as I posted previously, Corbon offers a 125 gn bullet at 1425 fps. That would likely make a big difference in gel ballistics. The purpose of the .357 Sig was to duplicate the ballistics of the time proven effective 125 gn 1450 fps .357 mag. Corbon comes within 25 fps of that.

    As some one surmised, it the .357 Sig had been introduced first, it may very well have been the dominate round instead of the .40. But of course, that's just speculation.
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    The only flaw in the gelatin test is that it has no bones.
    I agree, but OTOH, you know what the FBI bases their bullet criteria on? Performance in gel. Every ammo manufacturer develops their rounds based on gel performance and using that method they have developed ammo that has proven much more effective in the streets.

    I don't know how else they could do it.
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  15. #44
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    Another thought I have regarding the 357 Sig, is that ballistically, it is probably a great stopper, and this has been proven in the field of the LEAs who use it.

    It really cannot be compared to the 10mm in any way, other than it is chambered in guns with a smaller frame, thus easier to conceal and grip.

    Another thought I have is that while it's a hot proven load, it's uses are limited to defensive carry or LE. Although it's a hot load, the light weight bullet would not be a first choice against anything larger than puma or canine type animals if someone were looking for versatility in a cartridge/handgun combo.

    In this light, the 40 or 45 would be the more logical choices.

    But then again, choices are a good thing. So in that train of thought, it would be a fun and useful caliber to add to ones collection if one has the whim to do so.

    It just really depends on what you desire and expect from your gun for the intended purpose at hand.

    As far as people saying that handgun calibers being anemic, that's a bunch of crap that I'm tired of seeing repeated with absolutely no merit.

    But, if one really feels that way, then a 9x25 Dillon firing a 95 weight controlled expansion bullet at 2000 fps is your logical solution.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    It's a bit more expensive - I can get 9mm for $250/1000, .40 cal for $260/1000 and .357 sig for $310/1000. So the .357 sig is 19% more than .40 and 25% more expensive than 9mm, but that's not a game stopper, after all .45 ACP is $330/1000.

    Update: The 9mm (Walmart) includes tax. The $260 and $310 did not include shipping. Shipping would add about $25 to each, probably a little more for the .40 because it's heavier.

    Also, I just discovered the same source has .357 sig for $300/1000 and with shipping would be about $325. Still compared to 9mm for $250, the .357 sig is only 30% more. That's certainly significant, but not too bad.
    Walmart sells 9mm in a100 round box for 19.98 for brass cased ammo. That would be 199.80.

    Add and it's still less than 250

    *swyped from the evo so excuse any typos*
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