1911s Suck

This is a discussion on 1911s Suck within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Cold Shot cogent - good word It is a good word. Too bad that post was as far from cogent as could ...

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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    cogent - good word
    It is a good word. Too bad that post was as far from cogent as could be imagined in a thousand thousand lifetimes.... :)
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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  3. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    It is a good word. Too bad that post was as far from cogent as could be imagined in a thousand thousand lifetimes.... :)
    I find it reassuring that there are more than a few gun people out there that know the difference between your and you're; and there, their, and they're.

    The emoticon is unbecoming of a gentleman, however. Girls use them in text messages.

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    Yes, I know, it's a horrible habit I picked up from my daughter. But it does serve to take the edge off of particularly caustic posts. Saying it with a smile, and all that...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    emoticons SUCK!!! :~( <~~~~

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    I would be proud to someday create a pile of junk that sucks, much like the 1911. This invention would boggle minds at it's ability to become and remain popular and effective for over a century. And the world would say my name with the highest respect, like the creator of that worthless pile of trash, the dreaded 1911.
    OD* likes this.

  7. #141
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    So much crap in this thread I don't even know when to start....

    I guess we should start in the early 1900s.

    First and foremost, the picture of the handgun posted by Troll1 of what appears to be a 1911 sans thumb safety, is not a 1911. It would be classified as a M1910 or as a "prototype" and not a M1911. OD* has previously shown pictures of what is known as #1 in the CT state Library as well as pictures of JMB's personal gun, M1910 #3...and I'm sure he'll be able to share those.

    As patented, the M1911 had a thumb safety from the get go. It was the M1910 that eventually led to the M1911 as we know it as adopted by the Army....but not a "1911" As for the grip safety, that was a Military request by the 1906 Board of Officers requesting an automatic safety, but again that is going back to 1906...before a print of what we know as "the 1911" was even on paper (as far as I know)

    For anyone wanting to brush up on the pedigree of the 1911 and the models and changes leading up to it, I highly suggest "The Government Models" by William Goddard. It is a fantastic reference and the source of the information above.

    With that being said, I need to back through this thread and respond to some items bit by bit, grab some chips, put on the coffee and settle in...this is going to be a long one...

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    Meh, JD, why even bother? The best you'll get is a "I didn't have to read the post - someone told me he said something I might not agree with and I dismiss all other opinions out of hand, while insisting that my own opinion is absolute immovable fact."

    And here I go with an emoticon again, to graphically demonstrate that I was attempting humor: :)
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Now I have watched many of his videos, I know his name, I have seen his resume, and I know a bit about his company. He's a marketing genius.

    Oh and I didn't think the video was that bad... the man gave us his opinion based on his experience. It's just a *thing* for crying out loud, he wasn't talking about your kid or your wife.
    Dave

    "When among wild beasts, if they menace you, be a wild beast."
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  10. #144
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    Since Troll did a very good job with this break down of topic points, I'm going to draft him on this one, my comments will be in blue....

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll1 View Post
    Mr. Yeager's false statements in video;

    *@1:07 "A properly functioning 1911 is as rare as a malfunctioning Glock".... thats plain B.S
    Agreed.
    *@1:43 "you dont need alot of bullets, its a .45", "its all horse shi t" .... yea it will just bounch off your left eyeball...lol
    What he is referencing is that a lot of people justify the lower capacity of the 1911 due to the .45ACP chambering. This IMHO is a bad idea. As has been shown to be prety evident is that it takes multiple shots to stop a single attacker. This only gets worse when someone states that carrying a spare magazine somewhere on body makes up for the lower capacity. It doesn't more rounds in the gun + a spare magazine trumps a gun holding lesser rounds. I am comfortable with 8+1 rounds in my 1911 pending on regional circumstances, personal risk assessments etc., etc. Some things have happened here in the last year or so that made me reevaluate having 8+1 to going to 10+1 (a 25% increase) in a lighter package that I shoot equally well....any way. For a look at shots to stop attackers, check out THIS THREAD
    *@2:20 J.B. designed a 1911 without grip safety ..... err.... that would be the "safety lock (thumb safety)"... http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y95...51e1b429_o.jpg
    As stated previously, yes JMB had a design without a thumb safety, it was designated the 1910, maybe he did just misremember his facts on the matter, fact still remains that a lot of guys carrying 1911s back in the day tied down or otherwise disabled the grip safety.....big deal. A lot of work has been done to make it harder to miss that grip safety with a compromised or poor grip. There's one guy that posts on AR15.com (IIRC) that was in a shoot out and even after taking a shot to the hand was still able to manipulate his 1911...

    *@3:001911 only works with loose sloppy fit, modern manufacturing processes dont work.. but he wont name brands...
    He doesn't say that they only work with loose sloppy fit, only that they did....now having a 1944 Gov't issue gun, I can tell you that does not have any more rattle than some modern guns. As for modern manufacturing processes. I think that for the most part the manufacturing processes are sound, when done properly. Kimber made a mess of things with their MIM issues. I think QK hit the nail on the head on substandard QC and it's something we're seeing across the board with today's firearms it seems. Sig, Gen 4 Glocks, etc. are all getting a little buggy. You want brands that are hit and miss? Kimber and Para Ordnance.
    *@4:271911 owners make a poor choice. ... no we dont
    Some do. Some don't.
    *@5:471911 is designed for a arched main spring housing".. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...A1_pistols.JPG
    *@5:50A arched main spring housing, changes grip angle... Oh, it magically changes the front strap too?
    In a sense this is true, since the change to the M1911A1, almost all commercial 1911s had arched mainspring housings, in the last 10-15 years is where we've been seeing more and more 1911 makers reverting back to the flat main spring housing. And while I wouldn't say that it change grip angle, it can alter how the gun sits in the hand and raise the natural point of aim...Not quote "grip angle" but close. The grip angle of the Glock....raises natural point of aim compared to a 1911 with flat main spring housing for a lot of people...

    *@6:30only 2 or 3 places can build a 1911.... Wow
    I think OPFOR pointed it out, but what he says is something along the lines of "if I HAD to carry a 1911, there's 2 or 3 places he'd let build him a gun. And with that I can kind of agree, ok maybe it would be more like 5 or 6 by me but if I were to have another gun built, these are the guys I'd consider:
    Wilson Combat, Nighthawk Custom, Les Baer, Colt Custom Shop, Ed Brown, and the Springfield Armory Custom Shop as well as Volkman...that's 7...yeah lots of people make 1911s but not all are made right I'm sorry to say.


    *@7:07Nowbody gives a shi t if your 1911 works..... well, why make a video they suck then?
    Looking at his pool of source data, he does make a good point I don't think he's being untruthful regarding what he has observed. I've seen more 1911s choke @ IDPA and I've heard other instructors say similar things regarding the 1911 (I'll give you hint, most of the one's I've seen puke have been Kimbers, or mutted up ______________<----Insert your favorite brand name here.
    *@7:101911 owners dont know if their guns work or not........ lol
    Again, what he said was that not a lot of people SHOOT their 1911s to know if they work or not. To elaborate on this, look at my above posts quoting smlock where his gun goes from being problematic, to being a good carry gun for the money, to being a turd. Most shooters, not just 1911 shooters don't shoot that much OK, so the gun can go three magazines without fail, this gets done...say once a year that is fine for a lot of people, but when you start shooting....this is a low number, lets say 3K or more rounds a year, some of that done during high round count classes spanning multiple days, you start noticing your gun run a little differently. I had a Colt that would kick butt all day long shooting 100rd range sessions, but around 150-175 it starting getting a little finicky. Now, does this really matter in a civilain self defense role? Not really unless you never clean your gun. The typical self defense (excluding "duty" pistols) needs to see what, two mags worth of ammo? If your pistol can see two mags discharged rapidly and you keep up on the routine maintenance etc., odds are it's going to do it's job.

    *@7:15Dont bash me for my opinion.... we know what those are like.....
    Yes, but he does make some good points. Not all 1911s are equal, as I've often said there is no one brand to hold over all the others, but some are most definitely better than others.

    Factory magazines from a lot of 1911 makers are junk, even Colt mags (which are not really Colt mags as they come from a vendor etc. can be problematic. Kimber factory mags (not the Tac Mags) are really junky. Pending on when your gun was made it may have different mags than a gun made 3 months earlier etc. I hedge my bets by sticking with the more costly Wilson and Cobra mags. This is the part about 1911s that I find most frustrating. Why everyone isn't using Wilson or even McCormick Power mags as OEM is beyond me. OD can chime in with info on other magazine providers that are pretty good. I often hear good things about the OEM Checkmate magazines, but IIRC that's what Glockman had with his Gov't Model. My Colt XSE Government did not like the factory mags either, I don't recall of those were Metalforms or Checkmates but it sure liked the Wilson 47Ds.
    Here are some other quotes from the thread, I apologize for not including who posted these, but Multi-quote is not functioning properly for me at the moment...

    Yeager treats his fighting guns as tools rather than accessories.
    Good for him. Ever seen a Glock that's been treated as an accessory? I have.


    1). A "real" instructor would not bash any gun.
    2). He would have more credibility if he did not use foul language.
    3). "real" 1911 owners would not take his class
    4). How does this video make him look good?

    I will not be spending any time or money on his courses or programs. He is certainly full of himself. I would not be surprised if he is in the news someday.
    Yes I have 3 1911s I also have 3 Glocks.
    Real instructors "bash" guns all the time. I recall a thread where Doodle was asking what was wrong with XDs because David Bowie (Instructor @ TDI) who is also very good smith was "bashing" his XD....when I spoke with Dave a couple days after a class I attended, he bashed on my HK... If a student asks me about a Lorcin, Jennings, Hi-Point etc. I'm going to call a spade a spade. Did it bother me that Dave doesn't like my HK? No it didn't and I'm damn sure not going to pass on going back to TDI simply because he doesn't like my gun.

    As for the language, I'm ambliviant on it. As a real 1911 owner I'd be more than happy to take his class, just because we happen to have differing viewpoints on some items, does not mean that there isn't anything I can learn from him. How does this video make him look good? I don't think that was the intent, and call me crazy but I don't think he cares how this helps or hurts his image.


    Another internet wonder!!!
    Regardless of his internet persona/image, he's got a pretty successful thing going on, not quite what I would call an "internet wonder"

    You are right I did not watch the complete video, I kept hearing that John Browning was genius, but yet his design sucks. How does that work? I guess the 1911 was John’s big mistake
    He didn't say that, at least not quite. Today there are many variants of 1911, and a lot of them are NOT in keeping with Browning's design. The gun as designed by Browning or kept as close to those standards as possible, with the simple improvements as dictated by Col. Cooper (good sights, good trigger, and no sharp edges) is still a very effective and well equipped model. When you starting getting into heavily altered designs such as short barrels, dual springs, funky extractors, 30+ different "spring calibration packs" for any one trying to fix their defective gun with etc....on top of all the other issues as outlined previously regarding the saturated market for 1911s and accessories, each doing things a little different here and a little different there and it's no wonder we see issues.

    In short, Brownells is the 1911s worst enemy (Just kidding, I love Brownells but think about it)
    He uses anecdotal evidence which many of the unlearned believe, because it furthers their cause. He has no scientific evidence. As you point out he has seen 15,000,000 rounds fired, how many shooters shot those rounds. Just a few weeks ago my wife was having trouble with FTE and FTF while shooting her Walther. I took the gun and shoot a magazine through it and found it to function just fine, the problem was the strength in her wrists. Many of the problems with guns often come down to the operator. There is no question that a 1911 takes a little more care and feeding than some other guns, but in the right hands there is nothing wrong with them.
    That doesn't make it any less true, but that is something that does need to be taken into account.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle
    I keep seeing people minimizing their statements by saying things like "slightly more care and feeding but just as good"...I still read that as "on the day it counts I hope my 1911 is in a giving mood." No thanks.
    Not quite, I'm trying to think of how I want to phrase this....I wouldn't say that it needs more care as Lord knows I've beaten mine up pretty good, but I would say that more things need to be checked to ensure the gun is still in good working order that you may not find on other guns. As for feeding? If a modern 1911 does not feed hollow points, SEND IT BACK! Now if we're talking about Cousin Brody's reloaded semi-wadcutters that would choke a fire hose, that's another story all together.

    My 1911 was nothing but trouble. What's your point?
    As noted, don't buy cheap, if the gun is broken, before running out and buying new spring kits and polishing this, that and the other thing, talk to some people that are familiar with the platform and get their take on it, or better yet SEND IT BACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
    oh must have mist that...woops! Well what did you think of my doodle firearms analogy earlier in the thread...my overall point there is unless you pay significant money for a 1911 your taking your chances on reliability...well ok for conversations' sake, what would you consider the bottom rung brand of 1911 that you could recommend as being reliable out of the box as say a glock, m&p, XD etc...? Honest question as I know you own several and have more experience than I on 1911's.
    As for your analogy, you described Kimber perfectly except that even my "Custom Shop" guns were crap. As for 1911s as reliable as _____ lets look at this objectively. Lets look at Glocks issues over the years, Ka-booms, malf'ing with lights attached, this whole Gen4 fiasco, the M&Ps that had mags randomly dropping out of them, and XDs that randomly lock up tight... In no particular order I'd stick with Springfield, Colt, Smith & Wesson, Ruger and Sig. In the event that there is an issue early on with the gun, these manufactures will make it right. Lemons are going to happen, not all 1911s with issues are caused by the user being young, unknowledgeable, left handed, hopping on one foot....whatever. Some guns do have issues. I've asked you before about your Springfield, and you've never answered, but I saw in this thread that you had a bad magazine and some other issues. My question again is, What did Springfield do to fix the gun?


    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
    Sooooo, if your 1911 doesn't work it must mean you don't know how to shoot/clean it? If it requires constant tweeking and tuning of parts then I rest my case. My 1911 didn't work, 2 of them actually...I have put down here my opinion of a firearm, this responce is a vague at best, insulting judgement of people that haven't had the same result as you did. You might have well said, "if you disagree with me your an idiot."
    That's a big part of it. I recall one guy on the PA forum that bought a used Springfield and was all dejected that it was having extraction issues. Here I am trying to tell him how to check the extractor tension etc. and some one suggest that he just clean the darn thing and what do you know, the extractor claw and channel were packed full of crud. It does not require constant tweaking. In over 8 years I've only had to re-tension one guns' extractor....you guessed it. Kimber. Do I still check extractor tension when cleaning etc.? Yes. I do have one breakage to report, my Pre-2001 Loaded has a Fed-ex label to go back as the plunger tube came un-staked. Gun still functions, and if I really wanted to mess with it, I could fix it myself but I'm going to put that warranty to use. Yes over time you're going to have to replace springs and such, but that's the case with any gun. About the only part I can see really being necessary to replace later down the road is maybe an extractor and if you buy a gun with a good warranty, it shouldn't be anything for you to have to mess with and even that depends on how much the thing is shot etc.



    All in all, the 1911 genre as a whole is pretty stable but they do need to be tested to:

    A: Ensure that the gun does not have any immediate issues.
    B: The supplied magazines work as they should WITH YOUR CARRY AMMO

    Check out the 10-8 Articles Section for proper maintenance, selecting a 1911, magazines, and my favorite: Reliability, Round Counts, and Longevity in 1911s

    Yes, I've had some 1911 issues, other than the Kimbers and one Llama, the only thing I've had that NEEDED to be fixed has been the loose plunger tube on my beater gun and the used SRP I picked up was sprung too tight from someone fooling around with recoil springs that were too strong.



    Any way, it's late. I'm going to bed. Will rant more later.

  11. #145
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    I thought the video was entertaining. I think he makes some valid points, with some satire. The guy made the video to market his products, and it seems to be pretty effective, more power to him.

    Much of this thread has validated exactly what I saw as one of his key points: that many people attach an ego to their weapon, and this is bad for defense. IMO, ego=emotion, and emotion can be very bad when the SHTF and you cannot control it to get through the situation efficiently and effectively.

    Only a few here have actually attempted to challenge his words/opinions, and bring facts or verifiable experience. Judging the man on his looks is a mistake. I have worked with many military men, "special forces", and especially private security contractors. Many of them look very similar to this guy and many of them talk more foul than he did in the video. Would I trust them with my life, you bet! Does He have an ego, sure, but how is it relevant to the points he made?

    Discounting him as a good instructor because of the language depends on the audience. Ever worked with a drill sarge, pretty sure that most of them don't speak in perfect business class lingo, and I'm pretty sure that many are effective, great instructors.....many are bald too, and many have tattoos(even though they try to hide it). Not just in the recent troop generations, but going back to Korea and Vietnam.

    I am also fascinated by the few people who chose to express comment without even watching the video. That's a lot like a judge going to court only seeing the headline of a newspaper on his case, and listening to the comments the public makes to pass sentence.

    I'm not a Glock or 1911 fanboy, I prefer my XDs over any other EDC. That is MY choice. However, I have always wanted a 1911 because it is an iconic gun, it feels good and because it will hopefully satisfy my love for quality and specialty (or get me closer).

    In terms of facts to help me weed through the hundreds of 1911s out there, very little in this post has proven to me that the man is not closer to reality than some that are posting here. Maybe it's because so many have invested both passion and money in their firearms that they do not wish to hear anything that challenges what they have dedicated so much to. I don't know.

    This man's classes are probably diverse with a lot of people who are new to personal defense & firearms. I'm sure that many of those folks do not have a lot of hands on experience. Many in this thread who are 1911 supporters, have validated that issues are common with out of the box 1911s. Not one challenge to the Glocks reliability? So for an uneducated, new gun owner seeking the opinion of a clearly experienced instructor, A glock(minimum maintenance) for >$600 or a custom $1500-$3500 1911(some experience needed for care) for out of the box reliability, seems like a good recommendation, of a good instructor.

    I am not targeting anyone poster here and mean no disrespect, but thus far, the man in the video has given me more to get my trust, than the opinions/facts represented here in this particular thread.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
    ― Albert Einstein

  12. #146
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    Just a note: My previous reply was written while JD posted his latest comments. Thanks JD for taking time from the family to share your wisdom!

    PS: I like Emoticons, they help bring feeling back into text.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
    ― Albert Einstein

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    Well there is not much I can add to JD's post. The following is simply my opinion and no one else's.

    First I have no ties to Yeager or Tactical Response. I have never had the opprotunity to train with him but if I am ever in the states and the timing is right I would not hesitate to. When I first saw a video of Yeager he makes some pretty bold statements that bothered me at first like "All guns should be Glock. All Glocks should be
    9mm's and all 9mm's should be Model 19's. I thought to myself who in the heck is this guy. Then I watched more.

    Yeager will always be Yeager. He cusses when he teaches, he has some super strong opinions and is not afraid to go head to head in a debate over what he feels is right or wrong but he does run one of the best "Fighting Firearms" schools in the country, not a shooting school but somewhere that when you finish you can fight with your firearm not just shoot it.

    I have no reason to doubt him when he says that 1911's break down in class. As has been stated most who attend are not running custom pistols and most who shoot are not running 1000 or more rounds in a weekend like some of his classes do. Is this the standard as to what works or not? Who knows some will not fire a 1000 rounds in a year much less a weekend.
    In his fighting pistol class one of the requirments/drills is for all the students to toss their weapon on the ground then pick it up and fight with it. Guess which students hesitate the most? A firearm is a tool that is used to accomlish a mission nothing more. Yes there are tools that are more expensive than others and that we have an attachment to but they are still tools.

    One thing I would like to address though is the comment made early on in regards to his resume and his actions in Iraq as a contractor. Yeager was involved in a ambush where three of his team members were killed. His actions were questioned and requestioned. I have seen the video of the ambush and have my own opinions but until you have been on the receiving end of a PKM or other belt fed machine gun shredding the car you are in I would hesitate to make comments that his actions got others killed.

    To those who do not like his appearance oh well hate if for you if that is what you base your opinions on that seems to be pretty narrow minded, but whatever floats your boat.
    DRM and Tzadik like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    excellent post jd. i learned something new

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    JD about that springfield: I honestly never gave springfield the chance to fix it (I know this doesn't help my argument but honesty is honesty), the function of the springfield was never horrible enough for me to think that any one part was broken. Generally 3 or 4 in every 100 would malfunction randomly, sometimes FTF sometimes FTE. Also, I was always sick about discovering it was an imbel frame (brazillian) after purchase, and since have learned a bit more. One day after moving back to houston almost on a whim I took it to a gunshow and even traded it for a p220 sao. When the sig just ran with no issues I had the epiphony that this was what a handgun was supposed to do. The other 1911 that was problematic was a wilson combat, that gun wouldn't feed a whole mag with out 1 or 2 FTE's. I was soo pissed about that one after spending time with their guys on the phone and getting basically shruggs and I don't knows, I ditched it for an XD. (I was also in my mid 20's and more unreasonably impulsive) The way it was, at the time, I only owned 1 pistol and that pistol was horribly unreliable, and I felt I wanted to fix that asap. Looking back it was probably an easy tweek to the the extractor but once my trust was tarnished in that pistol well I was not happy. Now I've been shooting for many years but just in the last few have I been really studying and trying to increase my knowledge and I am not too ashamed to say that I am still learning. The more I read and research the more (on this issue with 1911's) the more I think one can't see the forest for the trees. Yes, there are good 1911 manufacturers that make a fine pistol, but I couldn't tell a new shooter with a clear conscience who offered one at a decent price that I would trust out of the box. I'd say Colt would be the best choice IMO for price vs function but even still we're talking quite an inflated price point compaired to other pistols that are functional out of the box (non 1911's.) I know some have had wonderfull experiences with their 1911's but alot of us out there don't have the funds to invest in mistakes over and over again before we find the right one. Perhaps if I had been part of this forum back when these descisions where made I might have a different experience all together. I hope all this doesn't come across as argumentative...I wanted you guys to know my backstory (my own mistakes included).

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    Doodle
    "The other 1911 that was problematic was a wilson combat, that gun wouldn't feed a whole mag with out 1 or 2 FTE's. I was soo pissed about that one after spending time with their guys on the phone and getting basically shruggs and I don't knows, I ditched it for an XD."

    Your comments about your experience with WILSON honestly have me perplexed because WILSON test fires every firearm before it leaves WILSON with a minimum of 80 rounds of three different ammo brands.
    Any of their firearms that malf (even once) during that test firing (after the completed "build") go back for corrective work. They really DO that - and that is before the firearm undergoes its final inspection. SO "one or two" malfunctions in every mag seems bizarre and highly unlikely.
    Did you purchase yours new from WILSON or did it have a previous owner?
    I have read (only a couple of posts on other forums) where a purchaser has had even a minor cosmetic problem with their WILSON purchase - like a tiny "ding" on the metal checkering and WILSON actually wanted that firearm back and they wanted to know who there at WLSON "signed off" on that gun with a final stamp of approval on that particular firearm.
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