Grip Safeties-death trap? - Page 6

Grip Safeties-death trap?

This is a discussion on Grip Safeties-death trap? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; And here's yet another solution. This is a 1911 I built about 10 years ago. I did all the work, all the fitting, went to ...

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Thread: Grip Safeties-death trap?

  1. #76
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    And here's yet another solution. This is a 1911 I built about 10 years ago. I did all the work, all the fitting, went to all that trouble to see if it would help with the problem - it did.
    I've got to admit, that is pretty cool.
    Good job.
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  2. #77
    Senior Member Array boatail's Avatar
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    I've never had a problem with 4 different 1911 types yet.
    I would tend to think it would be a life saver, and not because of the designed function of the safety. If you were to fire a 1911 without having your hand positioned to disengage the grip safety, it would probably crack your skull open.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Probably the same reason top competitors have very light triggers, large mag wells and other fancy stuff added to their race guns. Because it gives them an edge in competition over a gun that came off the shelf in the gun shop.
    Some things give an edge in competition. Other mods make things work more reliably. I'm prone to it happening and I think I know how to grip a 1911. I grip it just like you and everybody else that's learned the high grip with the thumb over the thumb safety.

    Are you trying to prove the grip thing doesn't happen because some competitors copy other competitors? DRM already said the mods he has made to the grip safety of 1911s were to solve specific issues, not to copy somebody.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    ...Losing a competition because you didn't get a proper grip on a gun and the grip safety wasn't engaged properly certainly isn't a death trap, it is a flub up in a competition by the person holding the gun. Could this happen in a SD situation, sure, just like you could miss your target in a SD situation like in competition. That isn't the guns fault either.
    Why do you assume I can't grip a 1911 properly? Because I have grip safety blocks occasionally? Might it also be that some people's hands in a high grip don't have enough 'meat' to keep the grip safety pressed in adequately while the web of the hand is pressing heavily upward on the beavertail?

    You are saying that it's vitally important to a competitor to be able to fire his gun in competition if he doesn't get a proper grip. Might that not also be true if one's life is on the line? A miss doesn't mean one finds a grip block acceptable because he might have missed anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    ...Because people choose to pin grip safeties on 1911's doesn't mean that it is a design flaw or death trap. They are simply looking for a mechanical advantage to overcome a shortcoming on their own part.
    They are looking for a way to stop grip safety trigger blocks under any condition. It doesn't necessarily mean they are using an improper grip. Knowing how to properly grip a 1911 really isn't rocket science. And we have to consider, what other gun won't fire with a less than perfect grip? Apparently just about all but a 1911. That's really sounds like a gun shortcoming.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    ...Is it Glock's fault that my son's hand can't engage the trigger safety because his hands aren't long enough. Nope. Should I "pin" the trigger safety so that he can work the gun without having the ability to get a proper grip
    No, but given those circumstances a lot of people have sent their Glocks off and paid good money to have the grip reduced so the person can operate the gun more reliably. We're not talking about a 1911 not fitting a hand. We're talking about a known problem even at the professional level where the grip safety cannot be operated reliably for some people under all circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    ...If a 1911 doesn't fit you and you have to make mechanical changes to it, don't blame the gun. Make the changes and go about your business, or find a different gun.
    It's not about fit, it's about a moving part of the gun not reacting well to some shooters' hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    ...However as has been stated previously, John Browning's design had been used for over 100 years...
    There have been many changes to the 1911 in those 100 years.

    The 1911 had no grip safety. It had no beavertail. As a result people got hammer bite and yes that was a fault of the design. That problem went away with the introduction of the commander hammer and beavertail.

    The later 1911s had the grip safety. That was changed to memory bump grip safeties. I really don't think that was a competitive thing. Grip safeties were being pinned before competition shooting was a factor.

    The slide ejection port has been lowered. I honestly think this was to improve reliability. 1911sl had to be adapted to reliably feed hollow point ammo. The pathetic sights were replaced. Gunsmiths made a comfortable living 'fixing', updating, and accurizing 1911s.

    The backstrap is pretty much now flat instead of arched as the original. That again speaks to an issue of the design that was changed to improve fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    ...There are lots of manufacturers that today put out lots and lots of 1911's the way they were designed.
    And there are even more that are no where near original, and I don't know of a single competitor, nor any SWAT team that shoots/carries an original pattern 1911.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    ...Are they all putting out death traps to the public? If so, you should convince them all to stop.
    Why should I convince them? I've never claimed they were death traps. I said it is a real fact that some struggle with the grip safety - even with the seemingly elusive proper grip.

    Look, I'm really not anti-1911. I probably have more than you do. I've built 8 from scratch and I have yet to have any kind of problem with one other than an occasional grip block. And by switching to a better designed grip safety, the Caspian full ridge, and tuning the grip safety tang, I pretty much eliminated the problem.
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  4. #79
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    Lightbulb

    sorry, just had to after you posted your extensive resume just to validate your point
    Extensive resume? No, I think that was James Yeager, over on the other thread. Mines pretty short and to the point...

    To say "The 1911 Sucks"..... is admitting there's no cure for stupidity.....IMO.
    I never said, “The 1911 Sucks”. Again, that was James Yeager over on the other thread “The 1911 Sucks”.

    This is the “1911 Grip Safeties are Death Traps” thread...


    And I still stand by that statement and no one can dispute the evidence that supports the findings. There’s tons of information on it. Google it or check out the M1911 forums and others as well.

    Keep in mind: I am not biased in any way on this issue...

    My post has already cost me 1911 customers (can you say hate mail? ). So, why did I make the statement anyway?

    Because it may save lives and I want good people to win fights, not loose them...

    Some folks here are in denial that the problem exists. That’s fine, it’s you’re free choice to receive the information I’ve presented or reject it. I REALLY hope that none of you ever experience a malfunction of any kind when it counts, and I DO mean that sincerely.

    And for those of you who don’t know, I am in search of the perfect pistol. It doesn’t exist, but it will (I hope) sometime during my lifetime.

    Part of my job as a Firearms Designer and Consultant is to identify problems and provide solutions. On the R&D side, my job to identify any and all “potential” problems and solve them BEFORE they happen. It’s what I do best…well, most of the time anyway.

    Respectfully,

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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie72490 View Post
    I did my apprenticeship with a gunsmith that specialized in custom 1911s (and s&w revolvers) along with all of the other work that came into the shop. I only ever had one grip safety problem out of the 1911s I test fired, the problem occurred on a gun that had been custom fit for a woman with very slender hands and for some reason when I gripped it with my beefy hands it just didn't engage properly with my normal grip. more often than not the grip safety made me concentrate on getting a very good correct grip on the weapon. that being said I carry my gen 4 block 19 because I feel the most comfortable with it, and I don't want to have to think about getting a perfect grip and switching off the thumb safety in a high stress situation. like other people have said, everyone has different hands and if something doesn't work for you then get something else that does. When people ask me for advice on buying a handgun the first thing I tell them is to go to a range that rents guns or have friends bring their guns so you can test them and find the one you feel most comfortable with.
    Thank you. All of those are things to consider.

    However, I think we've gone well past fit. There are few people that can't grip a 1911. The ironic thing is if you grip one the least bit low, it insures the grip will be depressed adequately. Or if you don't use the thumb over the safety grip.

    If one wants to shoot/carry a 1911 and has a grip safety issue, there are a number of things that can be done to help. Adjust the grip safety tang so that it disengages with less depression, adjust the tang until it's completely disabled, pin the grip safety.

    I suspect one of those options would be far more attractive to a person wanting to carry a 1911 than switching to something else.

    I fully agree with you about not having to worry about things.
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  6. #81
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    Spent a bit of time with some well used 45's before the change to the 9mm.
    I just do not ever remember the 45 failing me.

  7. #82
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    And hey, let's admit something, speaking of Glocks, many people find them 'block-like'. I don't, they fit me like a glove. But for others, they need grip reduction work done and are willing to be without their gun and pay the price to get it done. Is that the person's hand fault or the gun's grip fault? Well that question has been resoundingly answered by almost every gun manufacturer in the market.

    Sig introduced the enhanced grip - why? Their 50 year old grip was too big. They introduced the short reach trigger - why? To make it more reachable for some. Glock, Beretta, M&P, H&K have all gone to adjustable grips, again, why? Because their fixed size grips didn't fit everyone and rather than blame the people for having the wrong kind of hands, they conceded and made their grips adjustable. Why would we be so surprised to learn that some struggle with 1911 grip safety problems?
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    Spent a bit of time with some well used 45's before the change to the 9mm.
    I just do not ever remember the 45 failing me.
    So the implication is since you had no problems with it, nobody else should or has either?
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  9. #84
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    That's pretty much a "one in a million" chance type of occurrence.
    And now two in one thread?

    Actually you could have just physically held the hammer back with your support side fingers while pulling the trigger and then taken your finger off the trigger and just eased the hammer down to the safety cock notch or the half cock notch.
    Your hammer would have stopped its forward motion at the safety cock notch and would not have fully traveled down to the firing pin. Problen solved.

    I could understand how having that happen would shake you up though since it was such a totally bizarre and uncommon stoppage type situation.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I had an experience with my Kimber which led me to abandon the platform as my EDC and switch to something less complex and subject to malfunction.
    While firing on my range on a cold and windy November day, the sleeve of my field jacket somehow managed to get blown forward at the exact instant I fired. As the hammer cocked, it pinched the edge of my sleeve between it and the beaver tail/grip safety. The pistol was rendered inoperable, and it was only with extreme caution and difficulty that I was able to unattach it from my jacket sleeve with a round in the chamber, the slide within a hairbreadth of battery,the grip safety shoved down in the "fire" position, and the thumb safety un-engageable.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    That's pretty much a "one in a million" chance type of occurrence.
    And now two in one thread?
    Actually you could have just physically held the hammer back with your support side fingers while pulling the trigger and then taken your finger off the trigger and just eased the hammer down to the safety cock notch or the half cock notch. Your hammer would have stopped its forward motion at the safety cock notch and would not have fully traveled down to the firing pin.
    I could understand how having that happen would shake you up though since it was such a totally bizarre and uncommon situation.
    It happened with less than a thousand rounds through the gun, so the the odds were, for me at least, significantly less. The hammer locked up tight, and it wasn't budging. Shook up? Nah, just hung up.
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  11. #86
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    Having that happen would actually be almost exactly the same as "jacking the trigger" - I don't want to toss the thread too much "off topic" so I might delete this later on if it tosses the thread off.

    Jacking the hammer was also called The Poor Mans 1911 Trigger Job.

    When a 1911 trigger felt mushy and creepy what you would do (with an UNLOADED 1911) was cock the hammer and then force-wedge the hammer up between the hammer and the grip safety. Usually with an implement that looked something like a brass screwdriver. Then you would simultaneously pull the trigger (which would be much more difficult to pull) for reasons that I need not get into here.
    Anyway what that upward pressure would do was "force mate" the sear to the hammer full cock notch since the earlier Colt sears were typically of a higher hardness than the hammers.

    Doing that 2 or three times would take much of the pre-creep and mush out of the trigger pull.

    Now a days a qualified gunsmith can do the job much better and with far greater consistency.

    Just an interesting 1911 tidbit.
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  12. #87
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    Tangle,

    I think you might have edited your post, but I was not accusing you of anything, sorry if it came across that way.

    I think we are splitting hairs on this to some extent. However the title of the thread is questioning whether or not the grip safety is a death trap. (thats the way I read it) You make your arguments for why some people have issues, and/or why they choose to modify the grip safety. I understand this is based on issues you or others have had with some 1911's. I have not experienced those issues, and many others haven't either. Does that mean it doesn't happen, no obviously not. But just because some have had issues doesn't mean that there is necessarily something wrong with the 1911 either.

    You say that you have overcome your issues with the grip safety by changing the type and tuning the tang which seems to fix the problem for you. You do admit that some shooters hands have issues with making a part of the gun do what it is supposed to. That is fit to me, I don't know what else you can call it. If by changing the part to a different design you are in fact changing the fit of the gun to your hand aren't you?

    I agree that Glocks are blocky and those grips don't fit some hands. I don't like Glocks, nothing wrong with the gun, just not for me. I can shoot them fine, I simply choose not to because they require me to do things differently than I do with my prefered type of gun. They point differently than most of the other guns I have and shoot or carry, so I have to be more aware of what I am doing to put the lead where I want it to go. This isn't a problem with the gun, it is my problem. I choose not to overcome it by simply using different guns.

    Yes some folks send their Glocks off to get the grip worked on. And yes, this is the very reason that many manufacturers have interchangable backstraps now. They are trying to make their gun "fit" more peoples hands so they can sell more of their guns and take business away from the competition, or maybe not loose to the competition.

    Are you suggesting that grip safeties be removed or redesigned in the 1911 to make it more reliable, or what? I think that there are many more issues with some 1911's when it comes to feeding certain ammo or extracting issues than come up with grip safeties personally. But that is just from what I have seen. I guess we would have to find out from other members or gunsmiths which have caused more issues with their guns or others guns which were worked on.

    BTW, that is a very nice looking mod you did, glad it worked out the way you wanted.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  13. #88
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    I have 1911s and an XDm and have never had a problem with the GS. To me, if you can't grip a gun correctly then maybe you need a little more practice...or just go get yourself a different gun...but don't say something stupid like "it's a death trap" simply because YOU can't use it correctly. We have a term for that, it's called "operator error".
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    If one grips a gun properly every time they grab the gun, then one doesn't have to worry about it. If you have to work at getting a proper grip, you might have the wrong gun in your hand.
    Your first sentence tells me that you have no clue what I was referring to, so there's no sense in pursuing it any further.

    Hint... see post #24.

    .

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSP972 View Post
    Your first sentence tells me that you have no clue what I was referring to, so there's no sense in pursuing it any further.

    Hint... see post #24.

    .
    Think what you will.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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