Grip Safeties-death trap?

This is a discussion on Grip Safeties-death trap? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So for those that see Browning as a god, all knowing about firearms, if we want to know what 'god' thought of the grip safety ...

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Thread: Grip Safeties-death trap?

  1. #106
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    So for those that see Browning as a god, all knowing about firearms, if we want to know what 'god' thought of the grip safety he was forced to use by the cavalry, then the BHP is pretty indicative of Browning's true feeling about the grip safety. He didn't like it.

    So guys, what's your call now? Browning's original design without the grip safety, or the design as he mucked up the original design for the cavalry?
    I really don’t think we can say he didn’t like a grip safety, he used a grip safety on five previous commercially successful pistols. To me that proves to me he didn’t really dislike them. Browning's original design of the pistol, always had the grip safety (they had the GS since the Model 1907), if we are talking about the M1911, which I assume we are. To find the pistol without the grip safety we have to go back to the Colt Model 1905 Military, if you’re meaning the original design from which the M1911s evolved, you have to go all the way back to the Colt Model 1902 Military which was in .38 ACP, IMO, a different pistol completely.

    In fact, in his second design, Browning eliminated the grip safety from the BHP and retained the same SA type cocked and locked action.
    Personally, I don’t know that as a fact, it might be, but there is no way to know for certain, because what we do know as a fact, Browning had to work around his own patents, 984,915 and 1,070,582 (which contained the grip safety) he gave to the US Government. We’re not certain JMB intended for the “Hi-Power” to be carried cocked & locked because the last version of the pistol he worked on, used a concealed hammer. The man that deserves most of the credit for the “Hi-Power” is FN designer Dieudonne Saive, he gave us the “Hi-Power” as we know it today.

    JMB’s last version.
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  3. #107
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    Problems with the grip safety are entirely due to poor technique and training of the user. In the 101 years since the 1911 design came out, any problem with the grip safety would have been identified long ago.
    What planet are you from?

    I wouldn't call it a Death Trap...
    OK, so again I ask:

    If the grip safety doesn’t work and the gun doesn't go bang when you need it to, what would you call it?

    And for the record, I cannot shoot a high ride grip safety on a 1911 and have it work 100% of the time. But then, maybe I just need a little more practice.

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  4. #108
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    Hey DRM - Don't wear a necktie in the kitchen when you're using your blender.


    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    I had the EXACT same problem happen to me back in ‘98…

    We were out shooting on the beach at Damn Neck, VA during a Nor Easter. I pulled my 1911 out from concealment and went to work on some bad guy targets. The gun went BANG and stopped.

    I looked down and saw my field jacket sleeve flap (on the cuff) had got caught between the hammer and the beavertail. It was there to stay. I had to disassemble the gun to get it out. Damn it was cold that day and DAMN THAT SAFETY!

    BOTTOM LINE: One could argue that the problem was with the flap on the Field Jacket. Same holds true for long sleeve shirts. But there is something to be said for internal hammers and striker fired weapons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Hey DRM - Don't wear a necktie in the kitchen when you're using your blender.
    And don't wear anything long-sleeved while shooting your 1911.

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    Yawn, stretch, what time is it? The alarm didn't go off! Oh it's Saturday. I'm retired? OK, every day is Saturday.

    I've never had the problem, knock on wood. But I've seen it happen to others who obsess about a high grip, ride the top of the thumb safety, and don't hold the bottom of the frontstrap tight enough to keep the gun from rocking. Maybe it's God's way of weeding out the 1911 fanatics.
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    Hey DRM - Don't wear a necktie in the kitchen when you're using your blender!

    No Kidding! I bet if was using that old BHP with the concealed hammer and no grip safety things would have been different. Or maybe if I had practiced more that year, I mean I only shot 25,000 rounds...
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  8. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by pir8fan View Post
    The continued entry into the 1911 market speaks to the realiability and durabability of the grip safety design of the weapon. Problems with the grip safety are entirely due to poor technique and training of the user. In the 101 years since the 1911 design came out, any problem with the grip safety would have been identified long ago.
    You might have a hard time selling that to some of the best shooters in the world that have their grip safeties modified for enhanced reliability.

    It was identified long ago. People have been pinning grip safeties for many, many years. Probably more grip safeties were pinned of the original design than more modern designs.
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  9. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    I really don’t think we can say he didn’t like a grip safety, he used a grip safety on five previous commercially successful pistols. To me that proves to me he didn’t really dislike them.
    First, I said, grip safety; I mean thumb safety; I am forever forgetting which it was. But I've already corrected my post to that effect.

    Well, we can't know for sure. Maybe he liked them, maybe there were compelling reasons he had to use it. After all, other than the grip safety, it had no safeties at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    ...Personally, I don’t know that as a fact, it might be, but there is no way to know for certain, because what we do know as a fact, Browning had to work around his own patents, 984,915 and 1,070,582 (which contained the grip safety) he gave to the US Government. We’re not certain JMB intended for the “Hi-Power” to be carried cocked & locked because the last version of the pistol he worked on, used a concealed hammer. The man that deserves most of the credit for the “Hi-Power” is FN designer Dieudonne Saive, he gave us the “Hi-Power” as we know it today.
    That's true, JB died before the BHP design was complete. We can't know for sure and it may have been simply an effort to get around existing patents or to cut costs. But, nonetheless, the BHP as we know it today has no grip safety and is and has been carried by many civilians cocked and locked, chamber loaded for many years.

    My comments were to reply to an inquiry about carrying a 1911 without a grip safety. Well, many disable the grip safety and I was also trying to point out that many carry the BHP cocked and locked without a grip safety.

    My point was that many are claiming the original JB 1911 design, and they don't even carry the original JB 1911 design, and probably wouldn't if they could.
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  10. #114
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    Lightbulb

    Yawn, stretch, what time is it? The alarm didn't go off! Oh it's Saturday. I'm retired? OK, every day is Saturday.
    Hey, I wish I had your job. Must be nice, go to work at noon, take an hour off for lunch and quit at 1:00…

    I've never had the problem, knock on wood. But I've seen it happen to others who obsess about a high grip, ride the top of the thumb safety, and don't hold the bottom of the frontstrap tight enough to keep the gun from rocking...
    You are exactly right about the grip. The grip safety problem is directly related to the high safeties and the Thumbs Forward Grip. Works great on a Glock though…

    KA GLOCK GRIP.jpg

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    Maybe it's God's way of weeding out the 1911 fanatics.
    More like weeding out those guys who obsess about the grip (like me).
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  11. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    ...I've never had the problem, knock on wood. But I've seen it happen to others who obsess about a high grip, ride the top of the thumb safety, and don't hold the bottom of the frontstrap tight enough to keep the gun from rocking. Maybe it's God's way of weeding out the 1911 fanatics.
    Still, let's think about that. What other gun requires that in order to fire? None. The very fact that the 1911 is that sensitive to grip, kinda says it's more sensitive to grip than any other gun.
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    Fact: Jeff Cooper pinned his grip safety, I know because he showed me. No big deal as he showed lots of people things like that back during the Orange Gunsite days.

    Here's pictures of the grip safety and hammer on my vintage GSP, my Star PD(no grip safety) and my Kimber Crimson Carry II

    Photo Feb 25, 8 56 25 AM.jpgPhoto Feb 25, 8 56 55 AM.jpgPhoto Feb 25, 8 57 37 AM.jpgPhoto Feb 25, 8 57 56 AM.jpg

    I never pinned any of my grip safeties but have used a bit of skateboard tape for a sort of "ghetto" pin job

    There was a reason that Cooper got behind the Bren Ten project and part of that reason was that the CZ 75 which was the basis for that piece had no grip safety.
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    Hey DRM...it was intended to give you a mild chuckle and to help lighten up this thread....because in the far more than 25,000 forum posts that I have moderated I have seen forum members get perma-pissed at one another and even "drop off" of Defensive Carry or quit being active over semi-silly issues and arguments that tend to escalate to absurd degrees.
    And I would like to help prevent that from happening if at all possible.

    Peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    No Kidding! I bet if was using that old BHP with the concealed hammer and no grip safety things would have been different. Or maybe if I had practiced more that year, I mean I only shot 25,000 rounds...
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  14. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdbailey View Post
    Fact: Jeff Cooper pinned his grip safety, I know because he showed me. No big deal as he showed lots of people things like that back during the Orange Gunsite days.

    Here's pictures of the grip safety and hammer on my vintage GSP, my Star PD(no grip safety) and my Kimber Crimson Carry II

    Photo Feb 25, 8 56 25 AM.jpgPhoto Feb 25, 8 56 55 AM.jpgPhoto Feb 25, 8 57 37 AM.jpgPhoto Feb 25, 8 57 56 AM.jpg

    I never pinned any of my grip safeties but have used a bit of skateboard tape for a sort of "ghetto" pin job

    There was a reason that Cooper got behind the Bren Ten project and part of that reason was that the CZ 75 which was the basis for that piece had no grip safety.
    You know, I should have known that. I'm not sure how it is that I didn't, but thank you for posting that!

    I had the privilege of meeting Jeff and his wife and conversing with them in their home on the Gunsite reservation!
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    Thumbs up

    Hey DRM...it was intended to give you a mild chuckle and to help lighten up this thread....
    I thought it was funny. I've been poking fun at some folks myself and I probably should lighten up. Sorry, Guys.
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  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdbailey View Post
    Fact: Jeff Cooper pinned his grip safety, I know because he showed me.
    You're correct, he did, on some, if not most of them, but not all.

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