Grip Safeties-death trap? - Page 9

Grip Safeties-death trap?

This is a discussion on Grip Safeties-death trap? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; my search for guns which do not greatly bother my arthritis yet are still concealable... the Sig Ultra was a contender. heavier than a defender ...

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Thread: Grip Safeties-death trap?

  1. #121
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    my search for guns which do not greatly bother my arthritis yet are still concealable...

    the Sig Ultra was a contender. heavier than a defender but the same size.
    yet when i acquired it, drew and presented to snap fire-- 1 in 3 times the hammer did not fall
    cause the position of my hand and the grip safety were not in agreement.
    its the only 1911 style gun that has happened with.

    the Sig C3 was fine ; and an inch longer and i bought it.
    Arthritis sucks big-big
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  2. #122
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSP972 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    This is an honest question - which malfunctions cannot be performed, under pressure, with the XD/XDm platform?
    Depends on you. Have you ever tried a one-handed Phase Two (double feed) clearance, using only your support-side hand? Its difficult enough to do when you have nothing else to think about; and aren't injured or scared shitless.

    .

    ANY manipulation or series of circumstances that prevents you from getting a proper grip on the pistol means the slide is immobilized; period.
    In that very same post, I said, later:

    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    I'm a relative newbie, so, perhaps, the induced stress/pressure of the shot-timer buzzer and the physical intimidation of stepping into training classes may raise my heart-rate a little more than a seasoned shooter, but I won't lie: I know that it's just a class atmosphere, where I am expected to fail, albeit safely, and with the help of the instructors, overcome my failures.

    But all the same, I keep hearing of this pitfall of the XD/XDm, and yet, I have been unable to meet a situation - again, yet - for which I have not been able to properly remediate the failure.

    Sure, it's quite possible that I just haven't reached the proper training tempo, and thus have not yet met up with enough stress to cause me to flub. Nevertheless, I have trained hard enough that my palms bore bruises of the precise imprint of my magazine base-pads; and in that very same class, I put more than a few nicks into my wedding band (OK, so I should have probably taken it off prior to class, like I do for H2H/combatives, but honestly, how would I then know if that ring is going to get caught up on some piece of my actual daily gear? my training is framed around the realities of my daily life - how I dress every day, etc. - in the hopes that if I had to fight, I can rely on "default," if I had to). In another class, on a double-feed malfunction (we induced these, "randomly," by using spent casings, asking our partners to mix up our magazines for us), support/reaction/weak-hand only, in the heat of the moment (see what I mean about being more nervous than a more seasoned shooter? ), I ripped the magazine out of the magwell with my teeth...sure, it looked macho-awesome to my classmates, but upon reflection, it would have been tremendously embarrassing to have had to explain to my wife, why I came back from a day's outing with one tooth missing.
    Yes, I cleared that malfunction, with no problems.

    If I'm shot or scared (can't use the word you've mentioned, as it violates TOS, I'm frankly surprised that a mod hasn't stepped in and clipped it already! )? I don't know, and I don't think that's something I - or anyone else here - will know, until they are physically in such a dire situation. All I can base my response upon is a decently intense training tempo, nothing more, nothing less.

    However, there's also people like one of my friends: he ditched the XD/XDm platform after he found out through a similar training class/session that he could not reliably remediate that failure, given how his hand interacted with his XD.

    One size does not fit all, and I think that this is why it is so important for buyers to get out to the range to try on their planned purchases, and also for everyone and anyone who is serious about using a firearm for self-defense to get proper training, so that such potential issues are highlighted and can be avoided.


    ----


    On to the bigger picture:

    I don't think that any of the designs are inherently flawed - I think that *every* design has shortcomings, which, when it is paired with an end-user who is not skilled enough to automatically compensate, or, alternatively, choose to solely put the blame on the design without any thought towards a modification of either his/her physical technique or the need to modify the weapon to compensate for what is a unique-end-user issue, will cause problems.

    At its most fundamental, I don't see how this is any different than grabbing a suit "off-the-shelf" and expecting it to fit just right, versus either getting it - be it a $20 K-Mart Special or a $2,000 designer piece - to a tailor and getting it to fit you properly, or to just put that suit back on the rack and trying on another.

    To expect ANYTHING to fit each of us, as unique individuals, in an exacting manner? I don't think that's at all reasonable.

    I don't think that a grip safety is a "death trap" any more than the Glock Safe-Action is a "death trap."

  3. #123
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    On a serious note.

    Has anybody that has been "getting out more than I am these days" taken a look at the Detonics MTX-H which is reportedly extremely ergonomic - low felt recoil - .45ACP w/ 12+1 capacity & No Grip Safety?


    Detonics Defense Technologies: Enhancing Combat Precision




    Wondering if anybody has actually physically handled one yet?
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  4. #124
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    Exclamation I've been saving this one...

    Problems with the grip safety are entirely due to poor technique and training of the user.
    So, according to some of you guys, me and Col. Cooper had poor technique and didn’t get enough training, right?

    "We were treated to a great display of 45 autos, most of which were very nice. Since the commencement of the Practical Shooting Revolution, we have opined that all the 1911 really needs are a trigger that you can manage, sights that you can see and a dehorning job. In addition, one might propose a deactivated grip safety (!), a lanyard loop, a bobbed hammer, and press-fitted stock screw sockets. One thing the original pistol does not need is a recoil spring guide, which is now a popular feature of new construction. (It is curious to see a certain amount of trouble undertaken to achieve a slight step backward.) Most of the new 45s feature an extrusion on the lower end of the grip safety, which does not work for me, though it may for you. (Fortunately the grip safety is easily pinned shut.)" Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Previously Gunsite Gossip, Vol. 11, No. 3 March 2003

    My work here is over...
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  5. #125
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    I personally would not be afraid to carry a gun that had 4 or 5 bobbled every 100 rounds. Just learn immediate action drills and get back in the fight.
    I don't think a 4-5 percent failure rate is acceptable in birth control. I sure the heck don't think it is acceptable for an SD weapon that is suppose to protectyou and loved ones.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I don't think a 4-5 percent failure rate is acceptable in birth control. I sure the heck don't think it is acceptable for an SD weapon that is suppose to protect you and loved ones.
    Failure rates such as those actually lend themselves well to self-inflicted retroactive birth control.
    suntzu and DRM like this.
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  7. #127
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    The grip safety, I mean beaver tail, looks stealthy, but it's an accident waiting to happen...

    Other than that it looks very impressive.
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
    (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states). - D. Stanhope

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  8. #128
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I don't think a 4-5 percent failure rate is acceptable in birth control.
    ^ No disrespect intended, but you might want to look up the efficacy of various birth-control methods - methods which are well accepted.

    My wife is an adolescent medicine specialist, and I cringe when she talks about this kind of stuff (I'm her practice audience, the nights before she gives a national/international-level conference), since we have a daughter.


    -----


    Problems with the grip safety are entirely due to poor technique and training of the user.
    ^ Although I don't think that DRM was speaking to me, that's definitely *not* how I see it.

    I think that there are unique-individual anatomical/ergonomic issues which cannot be addressed by training, no matter how rigorous - particularly when the shooter comes under stress.

    I'm playing above my league, here, and I know it. I'm a relatively new shooter, with relatively few hours of training and a small round-count, compared to many here in DC, and even more so to those who are weighing-in on this thread. Nevertheless, I feel that it's possible that my own relative lack of experience...perhaps it sounds better when I say "lack of 'pre-knowledge'"...may offer a fresh perspective?

    As a newcomer with little-to-no shooting experience prior, when I entered the community to look for a firearm that would serve me in the SD/HD role, I simply looked at what works best for me in getting shots-on-target, and something that I could manipulate, and manipulate well.

    For me, the 1911 "shoots best" - but I was not well prepared for its use, due to the thumb-safety. As a new shooter, I was not confident that I could execute even that simple motion (alternatively, to execute it properly, both upon the draw as well as the re-holster stroke), under duress.

    On the other end of the spectrum, I found the Glock to be the easiest to manipulate, however, its ergonomics proved challenging for me: as with some shooters, I naturally indexed it high, and while that was very easy to correct for, on the static range, when I was placed under stress, my shots defaulted to the higher indexing. More than likely, with more rigorous training, I could have overcome this deficiency, but I was looking for a firearm that I could immediately put to-use, should the need arise.

    The M&P shot well enough, but I managed slightly better with the XDm - likely something to do with a more fine ergonomic concern, but regardless, one edged the other out in a head-to-head, in my hands, with an experienced shooter overseeing my use.

    In the end, I took the XDm home, but underlying that purchase was yet another reason, a reason that was (and remain) unique to my usage concerns: my young child is unable to successfully pull off a shot, on a pistol using a grip-safety. While I am very good with firearms safety, including storage, this is one added layer of protection that I was glad to have, no matter that I plan to never have to need it. And in so far as my training has taken me, at least for the time being, I have yet to experience any problems in its manipulations, again, as I mentioned before, to include single-handed, support/reaction/weak-side (for me, this would be left handed, which places an extra demand on manipulations, based on the right-hand-centric nature of the XD/XDm) remediation of the double-feed malfunction.

    ----

    Once again, I don't think that any of the designs are inherently flawed - I think that every design has shortcomings, which, when it is paired with an end-user who is not skilled enough to automatically compensate for such concerns, or, alternatively, choose to solely put the blame on the design without any thought towards a modification of either his/her physical technique or the need to modify the weapon to compensate for what is a unique-end-user issue, will cause problems.

    There are countless items that every one of us use, every single day, that we modify or adjust to make it suitable or more comfortable for our use. Why should the firearm be any different?

  9. #129
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    ^ No disrespect intended, but you might want to look up the efficacy of various birth-control methods - methods which are well accepted.
    It was a metaphor but since you asked: let us use the effectivness of the pill as an example. The effectiveness of birth control pills depends entirely on how they are used. While the stated effectiveness is 96-99% in reality this rate is much lower, around 87%. Poor user habits are the reason for the discrepancy. Taking the Pill at different times of day, missing days or skipping pills all decrease the effectiveness. The rate of failure increases if the female is taking OTC or prescription drugs.

    And my statement was that a 4-5 percent rate was unacceptable. But as a family you don't want to induce more failure by throwing more things into the mix.
    As for a firearm, I don't like to throw in anything else that can keep the gun from going bang:like a safety
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  10. #130
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    It was a metaphor but since you asked: let us use the effectivness of the pill as an example. The effectiveness of birth control pills depends entirely on how they are used. While the stated effectiveness is 96-99% in reality this rate is much lower, around 87%. Poor user habits are the reason for the discrepancy. Taking the Pill at different times of day, missing days or skipping pills all decrease the effectiveness. The rate of failure increases if the female is taking OTC or prescription drugs.
    Exactly - user-level errors are a big problem, for everything from the pill to the male condom.

    But wouldn't that example, then, also imply a user-level problem, when it comes to these firearms "deathtraps?"

    For me, that's not a great metaphor.

    I get what you're saying, suntzu, and FWIW, I agree - but I think that the example you used implies much more end-user culpability than anything else, which is something that, I think, is not completely accurate, and which I also think is not what you were trying to highlight.

  11. #131
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    Exactly - user-level errors are a big problem, for everything from the pill to the male condom.

    But wouldn't that example, then, also imply a user-level problem, when it comes to these firearms "deathtraps?"

    For me, that's not a great metaphor.
    Good grief, last post on this one: I DON"T LIKE SAFETIES! And the problems with birth control get worse when other drugs are introduced into the equation. These drugs have to be taken sometimes because of a doctors orders. So the user isn't being negligent. It is the introduction of something else causing the failure rate to go higher. And if it makes you happier there are sites that show forms of BC (pill included that are 98 percent and above for effectivenss. Good grief.

  12. #132
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ Whoa, why so mad?

    All I'm saying that it's perhaps not the right analogy to draw - it's inaccurate. Didn't mean to touch off a nerve. I wasn't the one who drew this analogy.

    Besides, why introduce into the mix of prescription drug interactions? Where's the gun-analogy counterpart with that?

    And trust me, you don't need to educate me about birth control. My wife is an adolescent medicine specialist. I've got all the education I need.

  13. #133
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    Similar examples are meaningful and often helpful, but often break down if pressed too far from the principle. The principle in this case is a 4-5% failure rate. In modern SD guns that failure rate is completely unacceptable. It's not even in the ball park. That would be 4 - 5 shots every 100 rounds, 2-3 every box of 50.

    Those of us that are privileged to tens of thousands of rounds a year, shoot thousands of rounds through guns without a bobble. I've shot 1300 rounds through my G17 gen 4 without a bobble of any kind. I've shot over 2500 through my M&P without a bobble of any kind. I've shot tens of thousands through Sigs and haven't had a mal of any kind.

    In closing, I'm not anti-1911, I probably have more 1911s than most of you, and more 1911s than any other gun I own except for Sigs.

    I think at this point we'll suspend this discussion. Just about everything that can be and needs to be said has been. I just don't want to risk hard feelings, etc. to develop any more than they already may have.
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