Is a handgun enough? - Page 2

Is a handgun enough?

This is a discussion on Is a handgun enough? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by EthanR. Well it looks like the majority of people are just against the commission of an arrest. And the majority of people ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array OldMick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    Well it looks like the majority of people are just against the commission of an arrest.
    And the majority of people here may just have some knowledge to offer. Please consider that many folks here are military veterans, concealed carry training instructors, law enforcement and folks who may have substantially more self defense/firearms training and life experience than you.

    I'll echo what several folks have already suggested. Get some professional training, read about the use of force and learn the elements of self defense. You will make much better decisions about when to intervene in potentially violent situations, and the real possibility of being severely injured, killed or spending some serious time incarcerated - all for trying to do what you "believe" is the right thing.


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crescentstar View Post
    1. Yes to a less lethal option, OC is very cost effective and works well.

    2. If you aren't law enforcement, you have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS carrying handcuffs.

    Why, you ask? Defending yourself and law enforcement are two very different things. When you defend yourself, your objective is to get away from the threat. You have no business to take someone into custody, and could, in fact, find yourself prosecuted for some serious charges including false imprisonment and possibly impersonating a police officer, to think of a few.

    As a private citizen you have the right to defend yourself, but you have no obligation to take someone into custody. That is the job of the police. Some will probably argue that you can make a citizens arrest, but even then, you must know what you can arrest for, usually felonies only.

    Example: A security guard in my area was successfully prosecuted for handcuffing a rowdy drunken college student and "holding him" for the police. Even though the guard claimed the student had assaulted him, because it was a misdemeanor assault, the guard was charged and convicted. The incident also resulted in a substantial out of court settlement from the civil lawsuit that the student filed.

    I can see a hornets nest of people saying you might justifiably carry and use handcuffs, but I highly discourage it. Get some training, OC spray, and a good flashlight instead!
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    Well it looks like the majority of people are just against the commission of an arrest.
    The main arguments seem to be:
    1. Police officers are born with some inate ability to make an effective arrest that no private citizen can can ever hope to match, regardless of training or practice.
    2. People who get intoxicated and try to harm others deserve pity, not prosecution.
    3. Big brother will not appreciate the sheeple doing his job.

    Police are not the only people allowed by law to make an arrest. Here are some Arizona Statutes pertaining to a citizen's arrest:

    13-3884. Arrest by private person
    A private person may make an arrest:
    1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony.
    2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.

    13-3889. Method of arrest by private person
    A private person when making an arrest shall inform the person to be arrested of the intention to arrest him and the cause of the arrest, unless he is then engaged in the commission of an offense, or is pursued immediately after its commission or after an escape, or flees or forcibly resists before the person making the arrest has opportunity so to inform him, or when the giving of such information will imperil the arrest.

    13-3881. Arrest; how made; force and restraint
    A. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person to be arrested, or by his submission to the custody of the person making the arrest.
    B. No unnecessary or unreasonable force shall be used in making an arrest, and the person arrested shall not be subjected to any greater restraint than necessary for his detention.

    13-1303. Unlawful imprisonment; classification
    A. A person commits unlawful imprisonment by knowingly restraining another person.
    B. In any prosecution for unlawful imprisonment, it is a defense that:
    1. The restraint was accomplished by a peace officer acting in good faith in the lawful performance of his duty; or
    2. The defendant is a relative of the person restrained and the defendant's sole intent is to assume lawful custody of that person and the restraint was accomplished without physical injury.
    C. Unlawful imprisonment is a class 6 felony unless the victim is released voluntarily by the defendant without physical injury in a safe place prior to arrest in which case it is a class 1 misdemeanor.

    This means that in a worst case scenario, I would be charged with a misdemeanor, which would probably be dismissed when the judge heard the circumstances, and heard from the witnesses. Even if I was convicted, I think that it would be an acceptible price to pay to save the lives of one or more people.

    I do not take the act of a citizens arrest lightly, but in a worst case scenario, i would prefer the option to restrain someone over the option of either having to harm them or letting them harm me or others.

    Here is a scenario:

    I am at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. I spray the individual with OC. Noone calls the police because now we feel sorry for him because he is coughing, crying, and appologizing. A few people take him to the bathroom and get him cleaned up. The party goes on. 2 hours later he starts being beligerant again so he is kicked out of the party. He takes his girlfriend with him and drives drunk into oncoming traffic, killing his girlfriend, and a family of four, but our favorite douchebag survives.

    Here is the revised scenario:

    I am at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. I spray the individual with OC. I call the police but it will take a few minutes for them to arrive and he is still thrashing around breaking things and taking blind swings at people so I restrain him until the police arrive. Douchebag goes to jail, the girl is safe, and the family of 4 makes it home from getting icecream. I get a scolding from the responding officers for not just waiting for them to get there, but I go home and sleep like a baby.
    It sounds like someone has already decided what they want to do and why and will defend it to the end, so why are you asking a bunch of strangers on the internet? Become a police officer when you grow up. In the meantime, given your perspective, I would suggest that you not carry anything other than a cell phone until you mature. JMO.
    archer51 likes this.
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  4. #19
    Senior Member Array wormy's Avatar
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    My advise would be to grow up, mind your own business and stay away from drunken parties.
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  5. #20
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    OK not even remotely qulaified to discuss your State laws on what you can or cant do , but to answer your questions in your post:
    1.Should I carry a less lethal option.
    For me a threat is a threat, but is it a threat of you getting punched in the nose or someone trying to seriously hurt you or kill you. You can only carry so much crap so for me, I'm carrying the best option, and thats a pistol

    2. What are your experiences with OC/Baton/Tazer/Stun guns? Which one was most effective?
    I am qualified in the use of the OC spray, X26/M26 tasers and less leathal bean bag shotgun as well as the ASP baton. First off OC spray is good for clearing a room, useless in a fight 9/10 times. Canister failure, splash back, and wind are factors to consider when deploying spray. Then you have to consider if you get a dose of your own medicine and how thats going to play out for you. Tasers are great, but in a fast defensive situation your only getting one shot, they are slow to change cartridges, and you have only bought your self 5 seconds unless you plan on lighting someone up cycle after cycle. ASP baton has the ability to make someone think twice when it gets whipped out and locks out. Good impact tool but you need to train with it. I know it sounds simple like swinging a bat, but you need to have the confidence and techniques to useit well and be able to retain it in a fight.
    3. Should I carry handcuffs/plastic restraints - benifits/drawbacks to each?
    I would say no, only because I would think that even in AZ once you restrain someone you have now taken some degree of responsibility for them as they are now no longer to defend themsleves from others since you hooked them up. You mention that you may run into someone who just doesnt want to quit. I would say then they are still a threat and you need to either up your response, or get the hell out of dodge.
    4. Does anyone know of any training programs for any of these (including pistol/shotgun training) in or near Flagstaff, AZ
    No clue
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    I will be turning 21 in a few months and I fully plan to carry a handgun. My question pertains to less-lethal resolutions. I live in a college town where drunken disputes are common and can quickly get out of hand. (1) I want to be able to end conflicts quickly without the undesirable side effects of lead poisoning. For my less lethal weapon choice I am leaning towards a cold steel inferno chemical agent in the mk3 or larger mk4 can. I like this option because it requires less training and practice to use effectively than either a baton or tazer/stungun, and is much more cost effective. (2) I am also looking at the option of carrying handcuffs for situations when a person is "too drunk to quit". I have a brother in LE who I practiced several cuffing techniques with while he was in the academy, and I think that, with regular practice, handcuffs are something that I could implement in a real world scenario. So here are my questions more plainly asked:
    1. Should I carry a less lethal option.
    2. What are your experiences with OC/Baton/Tazer/Stun guns? Which one was most effective?
    3. Should I carry handcuffs/plastic restraints - benifits/drawbacks to each?
    4. Does anyone know of any training programs for any of these (including pistol/shotgun training) in or near Flagstaff, AZ?

    P.S. I am fully aware of all of my state and local laws regarding all of these weapon systems and those pertaing to the justification of threatening/physical/deadly force. Also I keep my weapons locked up/concealed/secured when in the presence of alcohol, and I am not a drinker myself, but that makes me a prime candidate for DD most nights.
    1) Why are you getting into conflicts in which non-lethal force must be used? (Don't give us the answer "others start it")
    2) How is it that you need non-lethal options because you are in situation where "others" are too drunk to quit?

    It's been 33 years since I've been in a fight. I was 12 years old then.

    You are an assault waiting to happen. Learn the rule of three stupids - sound like you are routinely violating all three.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    I will be turning 21 in a few months and I fully plan to carry a handgun.
    What does this have to do with your below listed scenario??

    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    Verbiage from your first scenario:

    I spray the individual with OC. No one calls the police because now we feel sorry for him because he is coughing, crying, and appologizing.

    Verbiage from your revised scenario:

    I spray the individual with OC. I call the police but it will take a few minutes for them to arrive and he is still thrashing around breaking things and taking blind swings at people.
    Very confusing your scenarios just seem so much different, I wasn't much of a hang out at a drunk collage party guy but just seems to me your trying to fulfill a dream of being a cop don't get me wrong I'm not saying its a bad thing to protect innocent bystanders from life threatening situations just remember your scenario is based on a drunken collage party... Where Alcohol, drugs and most often minors find themselves involved in... Best advise for the host of the party call the police at first sign of some drunk about to cause harm to an innocent bystander and have all the minor jump ship before they arrive and to you my friend stay home cuddle up to your girlfriend on the couch and watch a lovely movie or a nice fall football game.... Good Luck Bud
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  8. #23
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    The next step after being a "citizen policeman" is being a "jailhouse lawyer."
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    ...Here is a scenario:

    I am at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. I spray the individual with OC. Noone calls the police because now we feel sorry for him because he is coughing, crying, and appologizing. A few people take him to the bathroom and get him cleaned up. The party goes on. 2 hours later he starts being beligerant again so he is kicked out of the party. He takes his girlfriend with him and drives drunk into oncoming traffic, killing his girlfriend, and a family of four, but our favorite douchebag survives.

    Here is the revised scenario:

    I am at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. I spray the individual with OC. I call the police but it will take a few minutes for them to arrive and he is still thrashing around breaking things and taking blind swings at people so I restrain him until the police arrive. Douchebag goes to jail, the girl is safe, and the family of 4 makes it home from getting icecream. I get a scolding from the responding officers for not just waiting for them to get there, but I go home and sleep like a baby.
    Why did you call the police in the second scenario, but not the first? You needed handcuffs to make a phone call???

    Besides, if he's driving drunk, it makes no difference whether he was kicked out of the party or left of his own volition. His earlier belligerence doesn't have much to do with it, either. Are you going to start cuffing every drunk you encounter, just so they don't go off and drive drunk? You're not talking self-defense at all here - You're wanting to play cop.

    Regards,
    Jim

  10. #25
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    Have you ever considered staying away from drunken parties and places where drunks will be? If your going to be carrying a gun, you don't need to be drinking while doing it.
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  11. #26
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    OP: I was reading your other posts. I recommend you heed the advise of the others on this forum or you will end up in jail or dead. I highly doubt with your attitude I will see your face in the news a a hero. You need to grow up. That is all.

    Oh, to go along with the Wanna Be Badge, look into a good cape.

  12. #27
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    Stay the heck away from drunken college guys. Problem solved.

  13. #28
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    Let me throw out another scenario for you.

    Drunken party. A guy is being belligerent. You pepper spray him and call the police but he's still being unruly. You go in to cuff him and he tells you to get away from him. You try to force him into handcuffs and he pushes you away. You try again and this time he pulls a knife and starts slashing at you. You pull a gun and shoot him. Who was using self defense here?

    Is it illegal to drink? No. Is it illegal to be belligerent? No. Was he drinking and driving? Was he actually hurting anyone? You tried to forcibly restrain him. He's a little out of it because of the alcohol but he still is entitled to his freedom and his own defense from unlawful imprisonment especially from someone who he does not recognize as an authority.

    Or.. here's another scenario.

    A diabetic who is not drinking at all but happens to be at a party has an episode (which can be a lot like a drunk). You go through all of the steps I listed above and you shoot him. Now, you not only shot a man who really did nothing wrong but also had an underlying medical condition. You really want to be facing a jury for that?

    Or... let's say you don't even shoot him. Let's just say you try to handcuff a guy in a diabetic emergency who tries to fight you off because he doesn't understand what you are doing to him and trying to defend himself in a moment of medical crisis when he should be getting help and not having someone try to restrain him. You successfully cuff him and when the police arrive instead of just dealing with him they have him and YOU to deal with and it takes even longer to discover that this was no crime at all but a medical emergency.

    Do you really want that hanging over your head?

    I'm no lawyer but if I were on that jury it wouldn't be too hard to convince me that the guy trying to do the restraining was stepping way out of his boundaries as a citizen and instigating an encounter that didn't need to go that way in any of those situations.

    There are three rules that every concealed carrier should know and heed....
    1. Don't go stupid places.
    2. Don't do stupid things.
    3. Don't hang with stupid people.

    If you are at a drunken college party with some drunk, unruly friends and trying to control them.... you have just broken all three of those rules.

    If you want to stay in that kind of environment then I venture to say you are not ready to carry a concealed firearm. People who carry firearms know (or should know) what a huge responsibility it is and that it means making some pretty big changes, if not sacrifices. People who used to be big on the party scene suddenly cool their heels. People who used to go out with the shady crowd that started fights suddenly see how that might not be the best company.

    Remember, when you carry a gun you are bringing it into every environment you enter giving it potential to be used (or misused) in those environments so the best course of action is to keep it out of those environments. Meaning, of course, don't break the rules of the three stupids.

    You said:
    Well it looks like the majority of people are just against the commission of an arrest.
    The main arguments seem to be:
    1. Police officers are born with some inate ability to make an effective arrest that no private citizen can can ever hope to match, regardless of training or practice.
    2. People who get intoxicated and try to harm others deserve pity, not prosecution.
    3. Big brother will not appreciate the sheeple doing his job.
    If that is what you've been getting out of these replies then either your reading comprehension needs some help or you have a really big chip on your shoulder or both.

    1. Police officers are not born with any inate abilities, but as others have said they have the authority and the legal backing to do things we citizens can't. It's their job.
    2. People who get intoxicated and harm others do deserve prosecution but through legal channels.
    3. I don't know what you do for a living but I'm a firearms instructor and a mom. If I were to show up at one of my classes and find an untrained newb teaching my students and doing it in a manner that was dangerous and that he was not trained to do you bet your rail I would be ROYALLY ticked off!!! Also, if I had some stranger show up and try to do my job as a parent then, yeah, again, I would be ticked as all get out. I'm pretty sure anyone who is trained in a specific job and showed up to find some untrained individual attempting to do their job they would be ticked. Not to mention the people who are expecting a job to be done right would be horrified to find out that the person performing the job was just making it up as he went along and had no authority to perform that job.

    How would you like to be on a surgeons table and wake up to find that some guy who read a few books and pages about heart surgery just decided to step in and perform your heart surgery that day because he decided to do the surgeon a favor and do his job for him.

    No, police work is not heart surgery but the principle applies... let the people who are trained to do a specific job DO their job and stay out of their way.

  14. #29
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    This is worth repeating...

    There are three rules that every concealed carrier should know and heed....
    1. Don't go to stupid places.
    2. Don't do stupid things.
    3. Don't hang with stupid people.
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  15. #30
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    Ethan, I know this probably isn't the response you were expecting from this group.

    What I hope you'll hear from all this is that you may (I said may) have some attitudes and presuppositions that could cause problems for you as a CCDW holder. And you may have some idea of how you'll handle future situations that could cause you to make a mistake that could seriously harm your future, or that of someone else.

    A mark of both wisdom and intelligence is the ability to see through your initial emotional response to being called out or corrected, evaluate yourself and the advice given, and make good decisions.

    It's my hope that you'll be both wise and smart, and change your mind about the handcuffs.
    lazytl likes this.

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