Is a handgun enough?

This is a discussion on Is a handgun enough? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Welcome to the forum. You'll get some interesting answers to these questions. For what they're worth, here are my thoughts: Originally Posted by EthanR. 1. ...

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 52
Like Tree70Likes

Thread: Is a handgun enough?

  1. #31
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,857
    Welcome to the forum. You'll get some interesting answers to these questions.

    For what they're worth, here are my thoughts:
    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    1. Should I carry a less lethal option.
    Emphatically yes. You should have a less lethal option in your toolbox. Whether that comes in the form of hand-to-hand training /proficiency or a tool like OC or an impact device depends on personal preference.

    I'd also suggest carrying something on the off hand side that can be used in a fight over retention of your gun, like a pocket knife or yawara or the like. If your primary hand in holding the gun in the holster, having something available to the other hand to persuade your attacker to let go of your gun is very useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    2. What are your experiences with OC/Baton/Tazer/Stun guns? Which one was most effective?
    Some people are pretty resistant to OC, and there are also environmental conditions (like wind) that can make it unusable. Something to keep in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    3. Should I carry handcuffs/plastic restraints - benifits/drawbacks to each?
    Emphatically not. The only situation where you would be justified in applying them is after an armed encounter. There is a reason why the police don't cuff armed subject solo. There are also serious legal repercussions in their use.

    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    4. Does anyone know of any training programs for any of these (including pistol/shotgun training) in or near Flagstaff, AZ?
    That, I do not know.

    Matt
    EthanR. likes this.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #32
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,857
    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    Here is a scenario:

    I am at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. I spray the individual with OC. Noone calls the police because now we feel sorry for him because he is coughing, crying, and appologizing. A few people take him to the bathroom and get him cleaned up. The party goes on. 2 hours later he starts being beligerant again so he is kicked out of the party. He takes his girlfriend with him and drives drunk into oncoming traffic, killing his girlfriend, and a family of four, but our favorite douchebag survives.

    Here is the revised scenario:

    I am at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. I spray the individual with OC. I call the police but it will take a few minutes for them to arrive and he is still thrashing around breaking things and taking blind swings at people so I restrain him until the police arrive. Douchebag goes to jail, the girl is safe, and the family of 4 makes it home from getting icecream. I get a scolding from the responding officers for not just waiting for them to get there, but I go home and sleep like a baby.
    The bad guys get to make plans, too - and sometimes their plans work out better than ours.

    Here's a revised, revised scenario for you:

    You are at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. You spray the individual with OC. You call the police but it will take a few minutes for them to arrive and he is still thrashing around breaking things and taking blind swings at people so you restrain him until the police arrive. While you are crouched down restraining the individual, his buddy rushes out of the crowd and stabs you in your unprotected back. You never see it coming, because you've decided to put yourself in a tremendously disadvantaged position in a crowd. As your pleural sac fills with blood and air, it gets harder and harder for you to breathe. Shocks sets in, and as you lose consciousness for the final time, you hear sirens in the distance. The responding officers call for EMS, and they attempt to resuscitate you. The effort is futile.

    The officers who scolded you in your scenario instead get to go to your house or your parents' house and tell them you've been murdered. The "douchebag" goes home and sleeps like a baby.

    Think this is impossible? I ran a stabbing with that exact fact pattern as a paramedic. Decent guy trying to break up a fight between a dirtbag and his girlfriend, took the guy to the ground and was holding him when the guy's buddy stabbed him. BTW, you'd be amazed how many times this scenario plays out and the person doing the stabbing is the girlfriend.

    Getting involved in someone else's domestic dispute solo is an excellent way to get hurt or dead. As often as not, you as the outsider are going to be the relief valve both parties are seeking and they'll both turn on you.

    You also seem to be forgetting something very important - any fight you get into while carrying now involves a gun. What if (and I know most 21 year olds never consider this) the guy in the ground kicks your butt instead? What if he takes your gun from you (since you've been so clever and helpful as to bring it down to him on the ground)?

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    ct
    Posts
    1,924
    I live in a college town where drunken disputes are common and can quickly get out of hand. I want to be able to end conflicts quickly without the undesirable side effects of lead poisoning.

    unless you are directly the object if the drinkers wrath--why are you thinking about getting involved???

    if.....if youa are going to carry a gun you best think & rethink where you are going to go with it.
    even to stop by a party in progress to pick up someone can morph into weird. bring a gun into that
    enviornment and the rest of your life may be shortened or changed.

    i can't read your mind or infer thoughts of perhaps too much 'reality' tv-- or confusing whats on tv with
    whats real. real is you carrying a gun to protect yourself ( and loved ones) from harm you can not
    escape or mitigate in any other way. including running away.
    running may not seem manly to you, but conflict with you is difficult if you ain't there.

    willingly placing yourself in a position of conflict--and having a gun in your possision-- is a receipt for
    your arrest and a landslide of legal troubles. others have given great advice re handcuffs;
    you don't have a badge = you don't possess them outside ur bedroom (sic)

    a good citizan should know how to use their cell phone (911 & camera feature) and feet as well as their other SD tools.
    The_Outlaw likes this.
    Arthritis sucks big-big
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  5. #34
    Member Array The_Outlaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    1. Should I carry a less lethal option.
    2. What are your experiences with OC/Baton/Tazer/Stun guns? Which one was most effective?
    3. Should I carry handcuffs/plastic restraints - benifits/drawbacks to each?
    4. Does anyone know of any training programs for any of these (including pistol/shotgun training) in or near Flagstaff, AZ?

    .

    1) Yes, it's always a good idea to carry a less than lethal alternative.
    2) As a former military police officer I have some experience with all of these tools.
    I have always had good luck with pepper spray.
    3) I personally would not carry any restraints as a civilian. Just my .02 cents.
    4) I'm in Texas. I don't have an answer for you on this question.
    ~The Dude Abides~

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    891
    There's absolutely no way I would ever let someone in plain clothes arrest me.

    Obviously some people will dispute this and come up with a number of scenarios to counter this, but I don't care. I'm not having my hands locked behind my some random dude.
    PEF likes this.

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    So. Central PA
    Posts
    1,794
    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    Well it looks like the majority of people are just against the commission of an arrest.
    The main arguments seem to be:
    1. Police officers are born with some inate ability to make an effective arrest that no private citizen can can ever hope to match, regardless of training or practice.
    2. People who get intoxicated and try to harm others deserve pity, not prosecution.
    3. Big brother will not appreciate the sheeple doing his job.

    Police are not the only people allowed by law to make an arrest. Here are some Arizona Statutes pertaining to a citizen's arrest:

    13-3884. Arrest by private person
    A private person may make an arrest:
    1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony.
    2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.

    13-3889. Method of arrest by private person
    A private person when making an arrest shall inform the person to be arrested of the intention to arrest him and the cause of the arrest, unless he is then engaged in the commission of an offense, or is pursued immediately after its commission or after an escape, or flees or forcibly resists before the person making the arrest has opportunity so to inform him, or when the giving of such information will imperil the arrest.

    13-3881. Arrest; how made; force and restraint
    A. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person to be arrested, or by his submission to the custody of the person making the arrest.
    B. No unnecessary or unreasonable force shall be used in making an arrest, and the person arrested shall not be subjected to any greater restraint than necessary for his detention.

    13-1303. Unlawful imprisonment; classification
    A. A person commits unlawful imprisonment by knowingly restraining another person.
    B. In any prosecution for unlawful imprisonment, it is a defense that:
    1. The restraint was accomplished by a peace officer acting in good faith in the lawful performance of his duty; or
    2. The defendant is a relative of the person restrained and the defendant's sole intent is to assume lawful custody of that person and the restraint was accomplished without physical injury.
    C. Unlawful imprisonment is a class 6 felony unless the victim is released voluntarily by the defendant without physical injury in a safe place prior to arrest in which case it is a class 1 misdemeanor.

    This means that in a worst case scenario, I would be charged with a misdemeanor, which would probably be dismissed when the judge heard the circumstances, and heard from the witnesses. Even if I was convicted, I think that it would be an acceptible price to pay to save the lives of one or more people.

    I do not take the act of a citizens arrest lightly, but in a worst case scenario, i would prefer the option to restrain someone over the option of either having to harm them or letting them harm me or others.

    Here is a scenario:

    I am at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. I spray the individual with OC. Noone calls the police because now we feel sorry for him because he is coughing, crying, and appologizing. A few people take him to the bathroom and get him cleaned up. The party goes on. 2 hours later he starts being beligerant again so he is kicked out of the party. He takes his girlfriend with him and drives drunk into oncoming traffic, killing his girlfriend, and a family of four, but our favorite douchebag survives.

    Here is the revised scenario:

    I am at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. I spray the individual with OC. I call the police but it will take a few minutes for them to arrive and he is still thrashing around breaking things and taking blind swings at people so I restrain him until the police arrive. Douchebag goes to jail, the girl is safe, and the family of 4 makes it home from getting icecream. I get a scolding from the responding officers for not just waiting for them to get there, but I go home and sleep like a baby.
    Let me give you the benefit of 70 years of living, BS in Engineering (5 years full time), Masters In Business Administration (two years of night school), a happy marriage of 44 years and counting, raising 3 successful kids, a successful career, and successfully planning for a comfortable retirement (been retired 8 years this coming June). I've had Top Secret and Q clearances. Trust me on this, I didn't get here by accident. I got here by paying attention to my business, being responsible, meeting my obligations, working hard, and being lucky and blessed enough to beat cancer three times (so far).

    So get over it. You are going to get yourself in trouble if you aren't careful, and you aren't wise enough to realize how much trouble. People have written libraries full of books about what you don't know. Or you can learn the hardway. Your life, your choice. Lots of choices are not reversible, nobody owes you anything.

    Wanna be a cop, save the world? Do it right. Go to the police academy, get a badge, get your degree, try to get in the FBI, try for the CIA, or enlist in the Marines/Army/Navy/Air Force - in any case try to resist the urge to "John Wayne". The only legitimate reason for concealed carry is self defense, not saving the world. Especially if you are a college student, emphasis on student.

    I went to college. Saw a lot of parties. Went home early most times. Never saw most of the things you bring up. I was a vet when I went to college. Most of the guys I hung out with were vets too. We were all over 21, on our own, paying our way (I graduated debt free with my engineering degree but it wasn't easy - engineering courses aren't for academic wimps, books and tuition were expensive, and I had to work to pay for it including apartment rent - I got some GI bill money for grad school, but not much).

    The one fight that was about to start, about 5 guys jumped on the agressor and calmed him down. We had very little reason to deal with idiot fresh from HS grads who got drunk, barfed on themselves, peed in their pants, and tried to assert themselves on others, and in general made total fools of themselves.

    Just walk away, you can't teach those folks anything, they have to learn it the hard way. They are like they are because they want to be. Nobody is forcing them to act like drunken oversexed idiots. They don't need you to tell them, they already know better and don't care. It's a choice. So do yourself and everybody else a favor and just walk away.

    You need a better class of friends to party with. Drunken debauchery, beating on each other while splashing around in puddles of spilled tostosterone is just stupid and with out any redeaming social virtue. Grow up enough to stay away from that stuff. If your behavior makes it into the court system it will really suck to have it on your record when you go to apply for that job you really want with your shiny new diploma in your hand and debt hanging over your head, assuming you make it that far (a lot don't).

    If you have a police record, even misdemeanors, and your competition for the job doesn't, guess who gets hired? And, trust me on this, your prospective employer will ask, and if you lie about it on your application or when they ask, when they find out, and sooner or later they will, you will be terminated for cause and find yourself back on the street. I know of no employer that tolerates false statements on job applications.

    Your mission in college should be to develop a saleable skill set, reputation, and character people are willing to pay for so you can make a living. If you want to make it your mission in life to save drunk college students get your education, get a badge or become a campus cop, then do it.

    Fitch
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety), by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” by H. L. Mencken

  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    ct
    Posts
    1,924
    Fitch may sound harsh----yet so can life be

    especially if look for, rather than away around, conflict
    Arthritis sucks big-big
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array TheShadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Stuck In The 1970's
    Posts
    915
    You guys missed the OP's other thread posted earlier this morning (I can't seem to find it). He posted (paraphrasing) that a couple of guys from his Apt. building living downstairs were drinking and disturbing his sleep. He went downtairs multiple times telling them to keep it down. He was awaken later by there arguing and loud profanity. He grabbed a shotgun and headed back downstairs. Seeing they're apartment front door was open he walks in, notices them scuffling over a pistol and draws down on them with the shotgun yelling "freeze get on the floor"

    If we're not being "trolled" here... This young fellow has some deeper issues that we as members can not help him solve IMHO.

  10. #39
    Member Array lazytl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    78
    Some excellent responses. The theme here, I suspect, is the difference between vigilance and vigilantism.

  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    So. Central PA
    Posts
    1,794
    Quote Originally Posted by TheShadow View Post
    You guys missed the OP's other thread posted earlier this morning (I can't seem to find it). He posted (paraphrasing) that a couple of guys from his Apt. building living downstairs were drinking and disturbing his sleep. He went downtairs multiple times telling them to keep it down. He was awaken later by there arguing and loud profanity. He grabbed a shotgun and headed back downstairs. Seeing they're apartment front door was open he walks in, notices them scuffling over a pistol and draws down on them with the shotgun yelling "freeze get on the floor"

    If we're not being "trolled" here... This young fellow has some deeper issues that we as members can not help him solve IMHO.
    Thanks. I didn't see that one. His story there sounds like a complete fabrication. Not much use for trolls.

    Fitch
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety), by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” by H. L. Mencken

  12. #41
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,857
    Quote Originally Posted by TheShadow View Post
    You guys missed the OP's other thread posted earlier this morning (I can't seem to find it). He posted (paraphrasing) that a couple of guys from his Apt. building living downstairs were drinking and disturbing his sleep. He went downtairs multiple times telling them to keep it down. He was awaken later by there arguing and loud profanity. He grabbed a shotgun and headed back downstairs. Seeing they're apartment front door was open he walks in, notices them scuffling over a pistol and draws down on them with the shotgun yelling "freeze get on the floor"

    If we're not being "trolled" here... This young fellow has some deeper issues that we as members can not help him solve IMHO.
    That post got pulled for language issues, but your account of it here is accurate.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  13. #42
    sgb
    sgb is offline
    VIP Member Array sgb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    You don't need to know
    Posts
    2,414
    Quote Originally Posted by TheShadow View Post
    You guys missed the OP's other thread posted earlier this morning (I can't seem to find it). He posted (paraphrasing) that a couple of guys from his Apt. building living downstairs were drinking and disturbing his sleep. He went downtairs multiple times telling them to keep it down. He was awaken later by there arguing and loud profanity. He grabbed a shotgun and headed back downstairs. Seeing they're apartment front door was open he walks in, notices them scuffling over a pistol and draws down on them with the shotgun yelling "freeze get on the floor"

    If we're not being "trolled" here... This young fellow has some deeper issues that we as members can not help him solve IMHO.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    3,450
    OC spray- YES
    Handcuffs- NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    Handcuffs are more likely to get you into trouble. Unless you're LEO, you probably shouldn't be carrying or using handcuffs unless its consensual and in the bedroom.
    "Was there no end to the conspiracy of irrational prejudice against Red Ryder and his peacemaker?"

    Revolvers, “more elegant weapons for a more civilized age.”

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array matthew03's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    S.W. VA
    Posts
    1,811
    EthanR, The wise and mature thing to do at this point is to thank these good people for their insight and then to examine yourself.

    Your first post in this thread showed just a slight lack of understanding, but trying to refute the solid answer's you got showed a real lack of maturity and maybe some deeper personal issues. Of course I didn't see, (thankfully), your first post about confronting your downstairs neighbors, illegally entering their home and assaulting them with a deadly weapon, that changes everything.

    Like you, at 21 years old I applied for my CCP and have carried for the last 17 + years. I didn't know everything at first, but I wasn't trying to play Die Hard either. I hope you will really take a look at yourself and see that trouble, if you don't change, is close at hand. There is no room for the tough guy attitude when carrying a deadly weapon, the key is deescalation and to stay far away from problem people, situations and places.

    While from your response it's obvious you feel slighted by the membership here, that too shows a lack of maturity. What you should feel is gratitude that these fine people are telling you something directly that will likely keep you out of prison, an early grave, and save someone else a bit of grief as well. We obviously don't like seeing irresponsible gun owner's because we believe in the 2nd Amendment; people who don't respect firearms make it more difficult on everyone else.
    ksholder and TheShadow like this.

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    2,071
    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    1. Should I carry a less lethal option.
    2. What are your experiences with OC/Baton/Tazer/Stun guns? Which one was most effective?
    3. Should I carry handcuffs/plastic restraints - benifits/drawbacks to each?
    4. Does anyone know of any training programs for any of these (including pistol/shotgun training) in or near Flagstaff, AZ?
    My opinions based on my experience. Don't take it as the gospel truth, because I'm not presenting it that way.

    1. Yes.
    2. OC pros: decent range, effective on most people, multiple uses if necessary. Cons: wind can blow back at you, relies on psychological effects as well as physiological. Taser pros: Range about 15', regularly effective. Cons: one shot, limited effectiveness with heavy clothing, zero effectiveness if one or both prongs miss. Stun guns/batons: I personally don't like them. They're contact weapons and I don't like the idea of letting someone get that close.
    3. No. You're not a cop. For me personally, the only restraint I'll ever put on someone is the inability for them to move due to trauma, blood loss, sheer terror or death. I have no desire to capture a criminal.
    4. No, unfortunately I don't. You might look for books by guys like Mas Ayoob though, to get yourself in the mindset you need to be in to defend yourself. It's every bit as important as knowing how to shoot straight.
    My blog

    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

are three handguns enough
,
carrying handcuffs defensivecarry
,
citadel 1911 academy
,
citadel firearms training flagstaff
,
is a handgun enough
,
is one handgun enough
,

is one pistol enough

,
kimber oc spay pistol
,

oc spray training in 45449

Click on a term to search for related topics.