Is a handgun enough?

Is a handgun enough?

This is a discussion on Is a handgun enough? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I will be turning 21 in a few months and I fully plan to carry a handgun. My question pertains to less-lethal resolutions. I live ...

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  1. #1
    New Member Array EthanR.'s Avatar
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    Is a handgun enough?

    I will be turning 21 in a few months and I fully plan to carry a handgun. My question pertains to less-lethal resolutions. I live in a college town where drunken disputes are common and can quickly get out of hand. I want to be able to end conflicts quickly without the undesirable side effects of lead poisoning. For my less lethal weapon choice I am leaning towards a cold steel inferno chemical agent in the mk3 or larger mk4 can. I like this option because it requires less training and practice to use effectively than either a baton or tazer/stungun, and is much more cost effective. I am also looking at the option of carrying handcuffs for situations when a person is "too drunk to quit". I have a brother in LE who I practiced several cuffing techniques with while he was in the academy, and I think that, with regular practice, handcuffs are something that I could implement in a real world scenario. So here are my questions more plainly asked:
    1. Should I carry a less lethal option.
    2. What are your experiences with OC/Baton/Tazer/Stun guns? Which one was most effective?
    3. Should I carry handcuffs/plastic restraints - benifits/drawbacks to each?
    4. Does anyone know of any training programs for any of these (including pistol/shotgun training) in or near Flagstaff, AZ?

    P.S. I am fully aware of all of my state and local laws regarding all of these weapon systems and those pertaing to the justification of threatening/physical/deadly force. Also I keep my weapons locked up/concealed/secured when in the presence of alcohol, and I am not a drinker myself, but that makes me a prime candidate for DD most nights.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanR. View Post
    So here are my questions more plainly asked:
    1. Should I carry a less lethal option.
    2. What are your experiences with OC/Baton/Tazer/Stun guns? Which one was most effective?
    3. Should I carry handcuffs/plastic restraints - benifits/drawbacks to each?
    4. Does anyone know of any training programs for any of these (including pistol/shotgun training) in or near Flagstaff, AZ?
    1 -- That is something only you can really answer

    2 -- None -- Altho with the Tazer you basically have the entire body are the 'shoot' area

    3 -- Again your decision -- However it seems as if you want to be more law enforcement rather then self defense

    4 -- Not in AZ sorry.
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    Senior Member Array Crescentstar's Avatar
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    1. Yes to a less lethal option, OC is very cost effective and works well.

    2. If you aren't law enforcement, you have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS carrying handcuffs.

    Why, you ask? Defending yourself and law enforcement are two very different things. When you defend yourself, your objective is to get away from the threat. You have no business to take someone into custody, and could, in fact, find yourself prosecuted for some serious charges including false imprisonment and possibly impersonating a police officer, to think of a few.

    As a private citizen you have the right to defend yourself, but you have no obligation to take someone into custody. That is the job of the police. Some will probably argue that you can make a citizens arrest, but even then, you must know what you can arrest for, usually felonies only.

    Example: A security guard in my area was successfully prosecuted for handcuffing a rowdy drunken college student and "holding him" for the police. Even though the guard claimed the student had assaulted him, because it was a misdemeanor assault, the guard was charged and convicted. The incident also resulted in a substantial out of court settlement from the civil lawsuit that the student filed.

    I can see a hornets nest of people saying you might justifiably carry and use handcuffs, but I highly discourage it. Get some training, OC spray, and a good flashlight instead!
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    Member Array hammer2213's Avatar
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    I personally wouldn't recommend and open carry of pepper spray or whatever that stuff is. Honestly it would simply draw more attention to u from the drunken college guys. Maybe a lil can in your pocket or somethin but don't ever flash any type of weapon around drunk guys, someone is always out to prove their manhood and their attention would go strait to you!
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    Senior Member Array TheShadow's Avatar
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    I live in a college town where drunken disputes are common and can quickly get out of hand. I want to be able to end conflicts quickly
    I am also looking at the option of carrying handcuffs for situations when a person is "too drunk to quit"
    If you have the mind set of stopping a bunch of intoxicated college kids from fighting, or siding with your intoxicated friends that are in a scuffle... It's a lose lose situation.

    Now if your talking about self defensive... you've come to the right place for quality SA/SD advice.

    Take Care.
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    Senior Member Array Crescentstar's Avatar
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    I just re-read the original post. TheShadow is absolutely right. OC can be used offensively as well as defensively. The latter is the only proper and legal use.
    "Clearly that's a YOU problem not a ME problem."

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    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    I would suggest OC. It is a good effective deterrent.

    As far as cuffs go, I doubt you can use handcuffs effectively. There is a reason police wait until they have backup to arrest offenders who get violent and rowdy. So no on the handcuffs. You are not a cop and it will look real bad when you are pulled over. The question I ask is, why are you handcuffing people? Why not let them leave as you are opening up yourself to legal liabilities if you do handcuff someone. And I doubt you are ready for that.

    So just stick with a gun, OC, and maybe a knife of some sort.

  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheShadow View Post
    If you have the mind set of stopping a bunch of intoxicated college kids from fighting, or siding with your intoxicated friends that are in a scuffle... It's a lose lose situation.

    Now if your talking about self defensive... you've come to the right place for quality SA/SD advice.

    Take Care.
    I agree. If someone is "to drunk too quit" then let the police and trained professionals deal with that person.

    I also wanted to add, make sure you get lots of quality training. And not from your brother but a trained instructor who is not connected to you on a personal level.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    I can think of a few places for training around Flag, one is Citadel Firearms Training. There are quite a few in Prescott, including the well known Gunsite Academy, and Insight Firearms Training.

    If your gearing up for drunken disputes I'm not sure I would have a firearm on me (if you ever do when alcohol is present)...walking away is going to be your best option, not intervening with something lethal or non lethal. The only intervening I would do is to leave some Ibuprofen and ice for them after they get tired of duking it out, no need for you to try and jump in and potentially get yourself in trouble.
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    You'll need one of these to go with those cuffs

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  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    You'll need one of these to go with those cuffs


  12. #12
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    It sounds to me that the best thing you could do for yourself is to read this book.

    The Little Black Book of Violence by Kane and Wilder (I think those are the authors - it can be found on Amazon.com)

    That book should be required reading for anyone over 14.
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  13. #13
    New Member Array EthanR.'s Avatar
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    Well it looks like the majority of people are just against the commission of an arrest.
    The main arguments seem to be:
    1. Police officers are born with some inate ability to make an effective arrest that no private citizen can can ever hope to match, regardless of training or practice.
    2. People who get intoxicated and try to harm others deserve pity, not prosecution.
    3. Big brother will not appreciate the sheeple doing his job.

    Police are not the only people allowed by law to make an arrest. Here are some Arizona Statutes pertaining to a citizen's arrest:

    13-3884. Arrest by private person
    A private person may make an arrest:
    1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony.
    2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.

    13-3889. Method of arrest by private person
    A private person when making an arrest shall inform the person to be arrested of the intention to arrest him and the cause of the arrest, unless he is then engaged in the commission of an offense, or is pursued immediately after its commission or after an escape, or flees or forcibly resists before the person making the arrest has opportunity so to inform him, or when the giving of such information will imperil the arrest.

    13-3881. Arrest; how made; force and restraint
    A. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person to be arrested, or by his submission to the custody of the person making the arrest.
    B. No unnecessary or unreasonable force shall be used in making an arrest, and the person arrested shall not be subjected to any greater restraint than necessary for his detention.

    13-1303. Unlawful imprisonment; classification
    A. A person commits unlawful imprisonment by knowingly restraining another person.
    B. In any prosecution for unlawful imprisonment, it is a defense that:
    1. The restraint was accomplished by a peace officer acting in good faith in the lawful performance of his duty; or
    2. The defendant is a relative of the person restrained and the defendant's sole intent is to assume lawful custody of that person and the restraint was accomplished without physical injury.
    C. Unlawful imprisonment is a class 6 felony unless the victim is released voluntarily by the defendant without physical injury in a safe place prior to arrest in which case it is a class 1 misdemeanor.

    This means that in a worst case scenario, I would be charged with a misdemeanor, which would probably be dismissed when the judge heard the circumstances, and heard from the witnesses. Even if I was convicted, I think that it would be an acceptible price to pay to save the lives of one or more people.

    I do not take the act of a citizens arrest lightly, but in a worst case scenario, i would prefer the option to restrain someone over the option of either having to harm them or letting them harm me or others.

    Here is a scenario:

    I am at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. I spray the individual with OC. Noone calls the police because now we feel sorry for him because he is coughing, crying, and appologizing. A few people take him to the bathroom and get him cleaned up. The party goes on. 2 hours later he starts being beligerant again so he is kicked out of the party. He takes his girlfriend with him and drives drunk into oncoming traffic, killing his girlfriend, and a family of four, but our favorite douchebag survives.

    Here is the revised scenario:

    I am at a party and a guy starts smacking his girlfriend around. Another party goer starts a fight with the guy and gets his butt kicked. I spray the individual with OC. I call the police but it will take a few minutes for them to arrive and he is still thrashing around breaking things and taking blind swings at people so I restrain him until the police arrive. Douchebag goes to jail, the girl is safe, and the family of 4 makes it home from getting icecream. I get a scolding from the responding officers for not just waiting for them to get there, but I go home and sleep like a baby.

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Based upon this and your other post here
    I concur with RoadRunner71, read the book. Then get some training. From reading your posts, it sounds like your looking for trouble that waiting is just waiting for an opportunity. Again, read the book, it might change your views.

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    It's not that the cops have some inate ability or special training (they are trained, but civilians can be trained too), but more that they have the commission from society to do things ordinary citizens do not have the commission to do. Along with this commission comes a bunch of perks that civilians do not have (limited liability, uniforms that denote that recognized authority, etc.).

    You need to read up and grow up before carrying a weapon in public. If you persist, based on this and your other thread, you will end up in jail or worse.

    Don't worry, a lot (most) of us thought we has all the answers to the world's problems when we were college aged. As you mature, you will find that you don't have all those answers. Further you will understand things you previously thought were ridiculous make sense. Sometime between 20 and 30, your parents will all the sudden become a lot smarter in your eyes. I suggest you hold off on your CCW plans til that happens. It will save you a lot of grief.
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