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sub 9mm

This is a discussion on sub 9mm within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; CZ 75 Compact. All-steel frame, 14+1, beautiful CZ ergonomics. If I carry a 9, it's going to be a CZ....

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  1. #31
    Member Array Jesters Dead's Avatar
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    CZ 75 Compact. All-steel frame, 14+1, beautiful CZ ergonomics. If I carry a 9, it's going to be a CZ.


  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array zamboni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilowatt3 View Post
    You've got pretty low standards, for a carry gun. Your "98.999999999%" equates to a failure every couple of boxes of ammo. Most decent semi-autos will meet that, and every revolver I've ever had will. I don't know of ANY make or model of gun that is "less then 68% reliable". Any gun that was that bad would be off the market in a heartbeat. Sure, there's a lemon of every flavor (Glock included) now & then, but I sure want better than 99% reliability. I get it with my Colts, Sigs, Kahrs, Rugers, Berettas, and even my cheap-ass Rossi, Taurus, Charter Arms, and EAA revolvers.

    Regards,
    Jim
    Oh boy here we go, happens every-time there's a post like this

    I agree to disagree with you ... go to those dedicated forums for Kahrs, Sigs, Kimbers and even your beloved betetta and you will read posted broken heart quotes from disappointed buyers.

    And if what you say is true about less then 68% reliability manufacturers still being in business then why is ... just to mention two ... Taurus, and Diamondback, still in business? I bought a Freedom Arms once and it was the biggest POS I ever had and their CS told me to take a long walk off a short pier before I even sent it in once for repair.

    If you look long enough you will find someone who's had issues enough to not want too CCW every gun out there

    I've had my Charter Arms "Son of Sam" for some 25yrs and have fed it something like 800+ rounds of viperous 44special ammo in several different flavors and haven't had any issues. I had an Italian 92FS beretta and after 3 trips back to its maker traded it in on a Block G26 about 4yrs ago and couldn't be happier. My G26, has been 101% reliable so far except for the first time I took it to the range and I limp wrist-ed a couple times while getting used to shooting it and had a couple fail to ejects in the first two mags. My fault though not the Blocks. The next 900+ rounds have been issue free.

    So go back and re-read my post ... no man-made anything is 101% perfect ... all the time

    Besides 98.999999999% rounds off to a plus-99%

    And yes wheelies are more reliable statistically reading then semi's but; if you read statistics long enough they can say what ever you need them to too

  3. #33
    Member Array Gary T's Avatar
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    Correcting a mistake..

    Unless you're able to always wear cargo pants, it would seem as if it's going to be hard to find a 9mm that is well suited to rear pocket carry. My Kel-Tec PF9 is one of the smaller 9mm's. W/ most of my dress pants, I can, and do, comfortably carry it in a rear pocket holster (similar to the one on the "pocketholsters" website); OTOH, there's no way I can carry it the rear pocket of the same pants. According to the same above website, the Kahr CM9 fits snugly in common jeans.
    I left out a few words so that the post didn't make too much sense. Should've read..... "W/ most of my dress pants, I can, and do, comfortably carry it in a rear pocket holster (similar to the one on the "pocketholsters" website) IN MY RIGHT FRONT POCKET"....

    Sorry for any confusion....

  4. #34
    Member Array cjacob316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary T View Post
    Unless you're able to always wear cargo pants, it would seem as if it's going to be hard to find a 9mm that is well suited to rear pocket carry. My Kel-Tec PF9 is one of the smaller 9mm's. W/ most of my dress pants, I can, and do, comfortably carry it in a rear pocket holster (similar to the one on the "pocketholsters" website); OTOH, there's no way I can carry it the rear pocket of the same pants. According to the same above website, the Kahr CM9 fits snugly in common jeans.

    If you could make front pocket carry work for you, you'd have a lot more options. As it is now, your options for 9mm are very limited unless you can always wear cargo pants.


    Not sure if that's a typo for double action only trigger or a play on words, indicating that you don't want a gun w/ a bad (dead on arrival) trigger. The Kahr is a double action trigger. I've been pleased w/ the trigger on my Kahr CW45. Not as long as my PF9 trigger and also much lighter. Certainly not as light as the trigger on many striker guns, but very serviceable, nonetheless.
    I missed that, yes I meant DAO

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni View Post
    Oh boy here we go, happens every-time there's a post like this

    I agree to disagree with you ... go to those dedicated forums for Kahrs, Sigs, Kimbers and even your beloved betetta and you will read posted broken heart quotes from disappointed buyers.
    So, what's your point? What is it that you're disagreeing with? I said, "there's a lemon of every flavor (Glock included) now & then". That doesn't address the overall reliability of a make or model of gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni View Post
    And if what you say is true about less then 68% reliability manufacturers still being in business then why is ... just to mention two ... Taurus, and Diamondback, still in business? I bought a Freedom Arms once and it was the biggest POS I ever had and their CS told me to take a long walk off a short pier before I even sent it in once for repair.

    If you look long enough you will find someone who's had issues enough to not want too CCW every gun out there
    Again, there have been lemons of every make & model out there, but that doesn't mean any particular brand is "less than 68% reliable". That would be a failure every three rounds. The lowliest Bryco, Jennings, or Jimenez could do better than that, on average - Considerably better. Probably at least 90%. But 90% reliability for a defensive handgun is pathetic. I have no experience with Diamondback, but to suggest that Taurus guns, or any other brand, are less than 68% reliable is ludicrous. If any brand was less than 68% reliable, they would be out of business within a few weeks; months at best. My Taurus has never failed, ever. So, shall I conclude that all Taurus guns are 100% reliable?

    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni View Post
    I've had my Charter Arms "Son of Sam" for some 25yrs and have fed it something like 800+ rounds of viperous 44special ammo in several different flavors and haven't had any issues. I had an Italian 92FS beretta and after 3 trips back to its maker traded it in on a Block G26 about 4yrs ago and couldn't be happier. My G26, has been 101% reliable so far except for the first time I took it to the range and I limp wrist-ed a couple times while getting used to shooting it and had a couple fail to ejects in the first two mags. My fault though not the Blocks. The next 900+ rounds have been issue free.
    OK, you've had performance from your CA revolver that is, well, pretty typical of a revolver.
    Your Block is "101% reliable except..." You had two(?) failures with your Block in two mags. That's 90% reliability, assuming 10 rounds in the mag. Pathetic! Are we to conclude that a Block fails one out of every ten rounds? No! You choose to dismiss that finding, but a couple of failures with some 'lesser' brand means it's "less than 68% reliable". I don't know what "viperous ammo" means in your context. Perhaps Colt Pythons, Cobras, or Diamondbacks are "viperous", but I've never heard of "viperous" ammunition.
    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni View Post
    So go back and re-read my post ... no man-made anything is 101% perfect ... all the time
    Re-reading your post will not cause it to make any more sense. Who ever said that anything was 101% perfect??? Oh, wait - You did. Your Block, except...

    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni View Post
    Besides 98.999999999% rounds off to a plus-99%
    Very clever of you - but what's your point? As I said, 98.999999999% reliability equates to a failure every two boxes of ammo. (That's 99%, BTW).

    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni View Post
    And yes wheelies are more reliable statistically reading then semi's but; if you read statistics long enough they can say what ever you need them to too
    It's a truism that "statistics lie". Statistics simply say what they say. If they "lie", it's for one of three reasons:

    1) The collection of the data was flawed,
    2) The data were manipulated to prove a point, rather than establish a true statistical value,
    or,
    3) The person interpreting the statistics does not understand statistics well enough to draw the right conclusion from the statistics.

    My comment about revolvers was not based on 'statistics", it was based upon personal experience. And the experience of pretty much everyone I know.

    Hey, I'm a semi-auto guy myself, but I wouldn't try to argue that they're better than (or equal to) a revolver, with respect to reliability. That would be foolish.

    Whatever.

    Regards,
    Jim

  6. #36
    New Member Array mcltc's Avatar
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    I think that every micro 9 will involve compromise. That being said, you have GOT to shoot the Walther
    PPS. Less recoil than my full-sized, all steel 9mm's, as accurate as my custom Colt 1911 .45, and less than 1 inch thick. Despite being a micro (pocket) 9, it's my son's favorite shooter, and too often overlooked.
    "Nothing ruins a good war story like a good eyewitness"
    Annonymous

  7. #37
    Distinguished Member Array zamboni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilowatt3 View Post
    So, what's your point? What is it that you're disagreeing with? I said, "there's a lemon of every flavor (Glock included) now & then". That doesn't address the overall reliability of a make or model of gun.

    Again, there have been lemons of every make & model out there, but that doesn't mean any particular brand is "less than 68% reliable". That would be a failure every three rounds. The lowliest Bryco, Jennings, or Jimenez could do better than that, on average - Considerably better. Probably at least 90%. But 90% reliability for a defensive handgun is pathetic. I have no experience with Diamondback, but to suggest that Taurus guns, or any other brand, are less than 68% reliable is ludicrous. If any brand was less than 68% reliable, they would be out of business within a few weeks; months at best. My Taurus has never failed, ever. So, shall I conclude that all Taurus guns are 100% reliable?

    OK, you've had performance from your CA revolver that is, well, pretty typical of a revolver.
    Your Block is "101% reliable except..." You had two(?) failures with your Block in two mags. That's 90% reliability, assuming 10 rounds in the mag. Pathetic! Are we to conclude that a Block fails one out of every ten rounds? No! You choose to dismiss that finding, but a couple of failures with some 'lesser' brand means it's "less than 68% reliable". I don't know what "viperous ammo" means in your context. Perhaps Colt Pythons, Cobras, or Diamondbacks are "viperous", but I've never heard of "viperous" ammunition.Re-reading your post will not cause it to make any more sense. Who ever said that anything was 101% perfect??? Oh, wait - You did. Your Block, except...

    Very clever of you - but what's your point? As I said, 98.999999999% reliability equates to a failure every two boxes of ammo. (That's 99%, BTW).

    It's a truism that "statistics lie". Statistics simply say what they say. If they "lie", it's for one of three reasons:

    1) The collection of the data was flawed,
    2) The data were manipulated to prove a point, rather than establish a true statistical value,
    or,
    3) The person interpreting the statistics does not understand statistics well enough to draw the right conclusion from the statistics.

    My comment about revolvers was not based on 'statistics", it was based upon personal experience. And the experience of pretty much everyone I know.

    Hey, I'm a semi-auto guy myself, but I wouldn't try to argue that they're better than (or equal to) a revolver, with respect to reliability. That would be foolish.

    Whatever.

    Regards,
    Jim
    I said and I guess you agree too that; True everything man made isn’t perfect 101% … OK for the sake of argument I’ll make that 100% … of the time.

    I said; WHEN I FIRST … that would be THE VERY FIRST TIME I took my G26 to the range I had a couple issues WHICH I SAID were me NOT THE GUN’S FALT because it was OUR FIRST DATE and I was getting used to how it handled. Since then it has been 101% … I mean 100% great. I’ll attribute this issue to MY learning curve not the gun

    I said; Statistics will say what ever you want them to if you read them long enough, true: their physics could be flawed because of a miss interposed figure, they can be swayed into one’s favor, but too … if you do look long enough you WILL find one that WILL support your personal theory. So they can say what ever you need them to.

    I said; That Diamondback and Taurus are only 68% reliable, meaning that OVER ALL … taking into account all of the models they manufacture, most have issues of a various nature. Go to their respective forums and you will read this for yourself. I’m happy for you that your Taurus has thus been flawless. I for one though, would never own a Taurus firearm.

    I’m old school and like the dependability of a revolver but favor the round-capacity of semi’s so as the song goes … “I’m torn between two lovers that I want too CCW”

    PS> thank’s for recognizing my cleverness

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array Cokeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kal0 View Post
    I have a Beretta Nano with over 2000 plus rounds no probs ... great small 9mm... I dont always pocket carry it, I prefer an IWB "Crossbreed" style holster ... but great piece.
    I checked one out at the store and the trigger was gritty. Does it smooth out?
    Glock 23 - CZ 452 ZKM Special - Walther P22
    LMT STD 16 - Mossberg 500A - Kahr P380
    Henry H001Y - Winchester 12
    Smith & Wesson M&P Shield - Mossberg 500B
    Marlin 336Y - Kahr MK9

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