IMO laser do their best work in low light and for shots where you can't get a sight picture. Angles around corners, shooting from the hip in a close combat situation... basically point shooting. NO; laser are no good if you if you stand there and try to hold them steady. I think this is a damn near an imposable task and to think they will improve your groups will destroy you confidence
How is it any easier to look for a dot in a low light situation than to see the glowing tip of the front sight equipped with night sights? And, if it's really that low light, how can you properly make target ID?
I only have one gun with a laser (642 Smith). I look at the laser dot being the same as the front sight/night sight. I don't hunt for the dot using the laser any longer than someone hunts for the front sight.
Originally Posted by glockman10mm
I like lasers. The pros and cons of lasers have been debated ad naseum.
I guess for me it would boil down to this - has any agency that issued lasers for duty use later decided that lasers were a bad idea, and withdrawn them from service?
I don't know of any. And that tells me something.
OP - Give them a try, and then make up your mind.
New and improved is no substitute for tried and true.
So spoke my father. While lasers may work for some, and that's just fine, I don't care for them. Just not for me.
LE and LEA's do not employ laser sights the same way privately armed citizens would be expected to under common SD situations commonly encountered. I just finished a comprehensive 3 day training evolution at work, to train in the proper use of laser sights, and in no way are they as quick as the front sight on a weapon.
I challenge anyone here to take the sights off their weapon,Use nothing but a laser, and make quicker more concise hits on a target than I can using a sighted weapon from the draw.
Now, use what you want, but how a laser is to be employed will determine it's value. And for damn near every scenario, with the exception of track-firing, on a moving target while holding the weapon below the line of sight, where the use of sights are impossible to see, then most any other scenario is better confronted with speed and precision with sights on the weapon.
And I'll ruffle some feathers here, but it is what it is. And one day, after all the profits have been made in the industry, and thousands of them are attached to guns of people who don't need them, or even have the proper training in there use, a comprehensive study will come out and prove that I am right.
Ta-Da, well said.
Originally Posted by glockman10mm
Don't need laser sights...night sights are just fine.OMOYMV
Very well said! Many point shooting instructors and FoF instructors say that lasers are too slow for the students in their classes that use them. Within 30 minutes or so, the students turn the lasers off and quit using them in the class. If the are too slow in a FoF class, why wouldn't they be too slow in a reactive gun fight?
Originally Posted by glockman10mm
...And I suppose there are those that still use a horse as their mode of transportation...
I recall way back when Col. Cooper had nothing but bad things to say about 3 dot night sights.
Actually I still dislike 3 dot night sights ....
The potential problem with the "lessons learned" from FoF classes is that the instructor can set up the simulation to prove whatever point or bias they wish to prove. There are just too many variables for the simulation to reflect all the possible scenarios that may happen in real life. Where the "lessons learned" from FoF contradict the "lessons learned" from real life, the priority should be to feedback from real life. I'm not saying that FoF is not a good thing, just to be very careful to check what you are "learning" with reality.
To that end...
The case for laser sights:
How to properly train with lasers:
http://www.corneredcat.com/Practicing_with_Laser_Grips/ (This is important, as a lot of folks who bash lasers do not understand how to use them properly. What Kathy Jackson writes here addresses the whole issue of "lasers are too slow" and "people hunt for the laser" etc)
testimonials from civilians who used lasers in actual self defense situations:
"Last night, I was the victim of road rage. The guy was honking at me, flashing his brights, and tailing me. I thought I could let him pass by...moving on to the shoulder, so I did. He did not. He boxed me in, and I couldn't go anywhere. He got out of his truck cussing and yelling at me, carrying a tire iron.
I told him to get back in his truck and leave, but he continued to come towards me. I drew my weapon and pointed the laser at his chest. I told him I would shoot if he got closer. He looked down, ran back to his truck, and peeled out. I didn't have to fire one round. I believe if it had not been for your laser...I would have had to shoot the man. Your product saved my life." [NOTE – Contrary to much internet pontification, the assailant DID see the laser dot on his chest]
"I was attacked by a drunken neighbor...(who) spent two days putting up foul language signs in our yard in protest for calling the police on him for repeatedly threatening to 'kill me, kill my wife, kill my 12 year old daughter, then burn my house down'. The neighbor was placing the signs on a metal pole he beat into the ground. On the second day, after photographing the signs and taking them down all day, I told my daughter to go to bed to get up for Bible school first thing in the morning - and if she saw or heard anything, (to) come and get me.
My child was not in bed 5 minutes when she came to tell me that 'someone is looking in my windows with a flashlight'. I went outside to see if anything was out there...(standing) for about 5 minutes with my Surefire® light. The neighbor came out across his yard with a sign, a roll of duct tape and a hammer...when he got caught by surprise with a bright light.
He flew around the corner of the sign pole and said very loudly, 'You die tonight, then I'm going over your dead body to kill your wife and daughter then burn your house down'. He swung the claw hammer at my head back and forth, backing me ...down the driveway. I tried to get in the house but he swung the hammer til I felt it go through my hair. I have a disabling hip condition that keeps me from moving extremely fast and could not get up the steps without the hammer connecting with my head, so I was backed into...my garage.
I tried to talk him down while he continued to swing the...hammer at my head. I punched him in the face and (struck) him with the Surefire light...my hip gave out and (we) both went down. When he tried to get up, all I had left to protect myself and my family with was my SIG P229 on my side that I have a carry permit for. I pulled it as a last resort and hit him in the head until he finally quit swinging the claw hammer at me.
He had 3 choices: run away, stay down, or rush-attack me. He sat up and tried to rush me until I activated the CTC Lasergrips® (on my SIG)...I am absolutely sure that piece of equipment saved my life. Even with a loaded chamber, I showed restraint and did not need to fire as the laser deterred him. He held his head and ran away (only to be) arrested for first degree assault and carried away by the police and EMS to have 18 staples put in his head. [NOTE – Again, contrary to a lot of internet chatter, the laser DID serve as a deterrent, and caused the assailant to finally back off]
This is from an off-duty LEO:
"I am truly, truly grateful for your company and your product. I purchased my GLOCK 30 several years ago to carry off-duty...shortly after, I bought a Crimson Trace laser sight to (go) with it. I felt it truly important to equip my gun with this, because I have been in several shootings and I know the importance of shot placement. Shot placement is often difficult during critical incidents for various factors, (including), adrenaline, lighting, moving targets, etc.
On (date withheld), I was off-duty and walked in to a convenience store robbery being committed by a male with a gun. My training kicked in and I ended up pursuing the robber. We ran through an area with limited lighting. The male was armed with a S&W 9mm - I was armed with my GLOCK 30 equipped with the Crimson Trace laser sight.
Thanks to this addition to my GLOCK, I was able to take a well-placed shot that neutralized the threat. Unfortunately, he died from his injuries, but I made it out of this situation alive, and no one else was injured. I truly credit your company with bringing me out on the winning side of this encounter...thank you for saving my life and the lives of so many people." [NOTE - we can argue about whether this is applicable to a civilian defensive situations, but the larger point is that a single shot was made, under stress, with the aid of a laser, and that single shot stopped the threat]
Back to the OP - Give the laser a try. Train properly with it. Then you can decide for yourself.
The first scenario sound like something drummed up. Seems like a good 1 second burst of pepper spray would have solved that. Second scenario listed is crazy. Why would anyone with a disability, on their own property, allow an enraged, obviously disturbed man swing a hammer at him repeatedly? " I tried to talk to him while he swung the hammer at my head repeatedly"....Wow...just wow is all I can say there.
3rd scenario, LE. I'm sure that if he could have hit the perp with a laser, he could have done it with sights.
Doesn't anyone else find all of these so called testimonials a little bit suspect. I mean come on, think with your own brain and common sense through these testimonials, and then tell me that the little red dot made all the difference in the world. But it is a ******* marketing stratedgy.
Try it for yourself, don't take my word or the marketing of the laser company. I'm not trying to get anyone to do anything, as I have no stake in it. But I challenge people to think for themselves.
Actually, after reading this, you don't really need a gun. Just get you a little laser pointer, and regardless of how dire the situation is, that little red dot will save the day.
It's amazing to think that people have been shot, yet failed to stop, or even feel it, but always notice the little dot bouncing on their chest! Amazing stuff!
Back when they were first marketed, I was introduced to laser sights one afternoon by an enthused pistolero bank customer of mine who put one on a Glock, also then still sort of new. One afternoon of playing with it and the novelty wore off.
I wouldn't use one if I had it.
Yeah Gman...trumped up, marketing blurb.
You can believe what you want guys. I've personally spoken to the folks at CT and some of the other lasers makers out there. If they say the testimonials come from actual users, I will believe them until proven otherwise. These folks strike me as being very earnest in their desire to make a product that helps people survive.
Your turn now. Any testimonials from folks who have used lasers in real life defensive situations who say "I didn't need it" or "it didn't help any" or "it actually hurt my situation" or "it made the situation worse?"