Reality Check

Reality Check

This is a discussion on Reality Check within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have some knowledge of a situation where a CCW person foiled a robbery. Two guys were in the process of robbing a grocery store. ...

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Thread: Reality Check

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    Reality Check

    I have some knowledge of a situation where a CCW person foiled a robbery. Two guys were in the process of robbing a grocery store. One of them had a pistol stuck in the ear of the manager.

    The CCW, observing this, fired twice. He shot one of the BG's. The other round missed everything but the wall of the store. (Oklahoma Law allows you to use enough force to stop a crime being committed in front of your eyes- 22 OS 31, 33, 39). NOTE: those laws don't REQUIRE you to help, and the police will usually encourage you NOT to...but you can raise these statutes as affirmative defenses if you shoot someone who is committing a crime and get prosecuted for it, which is usually unlikely.

    The BG who was shot dragged himself out the door. The other just ran like his butt was on fire. They both got away (for a little while). The CCW didn't shoot more because the BG's, in his judgment, were no longer threats to anyone at that point. THAT is prodigious restraint, and good thinking IMHO.

    I got to thinking about that and the weapons I carry- not from a standpoint of "what I'd do" in this scenario, but from a "If it's come to me shooting (whatever the situation is), am I the best prepared I can be?" sort of perspective.

    It has changed my outlook on carry weapons a bit. I LOVE my
    1911's. Dearly. And I shoot them pretty well.

    But I'm thinking I'd want all the advantages and insurance I could get. Including as much capacity as I could comfortably carry. And I shoot my XD45 just as accurately as my 1911's.

    I'm also thinking, to paraphrase Cirillo, "no one's ever been in a gunfight and wished later for a smaller gun".

    To me, that means carry the biggest caliber, highest capacity weapon you can shoot well, that is legal to CCW (Oklahoma law limits your caliber to .45 or less, overall length to less than 16", I think) and worry about fashion later. In other words, buy your clothes to fit your weapons. Not the other way around.

    I'm also thinking a backup is NOT a screwy idea.

    I'm also thinking more range time, and fewer straight-on bull's eye targets. Better, more training. And other kinds of training, too.

    Thoughts, folks?


  2. #2
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    preparing for any encounter you may likely face is a good idea. Force on force training(especially dynamic ) can teach you to react to different situations, scenarios. each person needs to decide how much training and options will work best for her/him. A gun not carried is of no use either.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    JD
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    Train for how you will fight? That's idealisticly the only way to train and is one of the many sayings in the Marine Corps, recently after reviewing current events in Iraq, the Marine Corps is changing thier range program to to include more moving and shooting...


    You figure it out.

    Now comes the sad part, moving and shooting on most ranges is a big no no, so you need to get into matches IDPA and others, the schools are fine however the cost is not Gunsite starts tuition at $800 for the class, not covering your travel. Professional training while crucial to your develpment skills is costly, I'd suggest checking for local match schedules and begin to get involved in more realistic shooting.

    If you live on a couple of acres and the local laws are discharge friendly, you can set up a couple of targets with good backstops and have your own little shooting gallery which will provide you with multiple "attackers" and good cover positions.

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    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    How did you arrive at your conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by randytulsa2 View Post
    The CCW, observing this, fired twice. He shot one of the BG's. The other round missed everything but the wall of the store.
    It has changed my outlook on carry weapons a bit.
    You said the CCW holder fired two shots, one hit and one miss, and the bad guys ran away. Why would this particular event change your mind about carrying a 1911 with 8 or 9 shot capacity? If the CCW holder was carrying a 1911 in this instance, he would still have 6 or 7 rounds on tap when the fight ended.

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    Member Array CraigJS's Avatar
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    If the bad guy really had a pistol stuck in the ear of the manager, I would question the timing of his shooting at the BG's.. (perhaps it was just a figure of speach?) I'm really glad it turned out ok though!

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    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    Sounds like this event helped you gain some insight into the realities of gunfights.

    Quote Originally Posted by randytulsa2 View Post
    I got to thinking about that and the weapons I carry- not from a standpoint of "what I'd do" in this scenario, but from a "If it's come to me shooting (whatever the situation is), am I the best prepared I can be?" sort of perspective.

    It has changed my outlook on carry weapons a bit. I LOVE my
    1911's. Dearly. And I shoot them pretty well.

    But I'm thinking I'd want all the advantages and insurance I could get. Including as much capacity as I could comfortably carry. And I shoot my XD45 just as accurately as my 1911's.
    Hard to argue against carrying a gun with more rounds so long as it does not compromise your performance and you are willing to carry it.

    Quote Originally Posted by randytulsa2 View Post
    I'm also thinking a backup is NOT a screwy idea.
    I disagree with that conclusion, but the choice is yours and I am not going to reopen a BUG debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by randytulsa2 View Post
    I'm also thinking more range time, and fewer straight-on bull's eye targets. Better, more training. And other kinds of training, too.
    I totally agree with less straight-on bulls-eye targets. Relevant practice is essential. Training is a good thing but graduation from a bunch of shooting courses does not equate to being prepared. Identify deficiencies in your defensive skill sets and seek out training to correct them.

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    Pogo2:

    The two rounds fired thing didn't influence me for what it was. It did influence me for what it could have turned into. It's one thing to shoot at a couple of BG's with one of them running off, while the one you hit crawls off.

    It's quite another, and it could easily have happened, that the one with the gun on the manager could have turned and started a firefight with the CCW.

    In THAT situation, it's just hard to have too many bullets.

    However, within the parameters of your question, you are right. Two shots fired were enough, and that alone shouldn't make anyone want to carry more rounds.

    But I'll bet you WOULDN'T go along with my reasoning if my conclusion had been that I will ditch my 1911's and XD45 in favor of a two-shot derringer, 'cause that's all that was "needed".

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    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    I reckon you have to look at the probability of your worst case scenario and then realize that you have to draw the line somewhere. You can walk around with 4 Glocks, two reloads for each one strapped to your person, and still imagine a situation where you would be outgunned.

    I will carry my 1911 a reload or two, and call it good. If I get into a situation where that isn't enough, I figure I will just have to suffer the consequence of getting myself so thoroughly unassed.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

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    I think about the adrenaline factor. You can't practice for that. Adrenaline can effect your actions IMO. I know from playing sports in my past that adrenaline can affect your focus. You end up running around like an idiot instead of performing your specific task.

    For me I'm not going to kill someone over money or possessions. Conceal and Carry is a means of family defense. If the BG starts shooting ppl than I have no choice, other than that I'm going to call 911 and observe from a safe vantage point.

    J.S.

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    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randytulsa2 View Post
    Pogo2: But I'll bet you WOULDN'T go along with my reasoning if my conclusion had been that I will ditch my 1911's and XD45 in favor of a two-shot derringer, 'cause that's all that was "needed".
    You're right, I don't think 2 rounds are enough for most situations. Derringers are also hard to shoot accurately at any distance.

    I've thought about the capacity issue, and I personally have guns suitable for carry with capacity ranging from 5 rounds (J frame revolver) to 16 rounds (Glock 19). And I always carry one reload, either spare magazine or revolver speed strip. I do like a 1911 very much for carry, and that gives me either 8 or 9 rounds in the gun.

    Based on encounters I have read about, I think that 8 or 9 rounds will be adequate for a CCW holder in 99.9% of situations, if the caliber is significant (.45, .40, etc.) and you are reasonably proficient with the gun. I realize that I am gambling that I won't encounter the rare case of 3 armed assailants who want to shoot it out to the bitter end. If I do, and I fire 8 or 9 and am still standing, I'll have to reload somehow.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    In the rare event that I ever need to use my pistol for self-defense, I don't want to be ill-prepared if it's also that rare event that requires a lot of ammo to save my bacon! So, depending on the holster/ammo pouch setup I choose, I am armed with either 10, 25 or 40 rounds...maybe it's my Army experience, but I sure do like having the 40 rounds on board!

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pogo2 View Post
    Based on encounters I have read about, I think that 8 or 9 rounds will be adequate for a CCW holder in 99.9% of situations, if the caliber is significant (.45, .40, etc.) and you are reasonably proficient with the gun.
    It sure does suck, to be in that 0.01%, though. Of 3 folks I know (2 LE, 1 civvie) who went through such a situation, none of them was willing to do it again, and laid their survival solely in the hands of God. Honestly, 30 rounds of 9mm, or 26 or so in .45, is easily contained in an envelope the size of most 1911s w/2 reloads, so.........

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