For folks that pocket carry..... A "test" that you should take
This is a discussion on For folks that pocket carry..... A "test" that you should take within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have had very good luck with reliability with a CM9 and a M&P 45C for my personal CCW.
The CM9 is for those days ...
June 11th, 2012 05:57 PM
For folks that pocket carry..... A "test" that you should take
I have had very good luck with reliability with a CM9 and a M&P 45C for my personal CCW.
The CM9 is for those days where I need to tuck in my shirt and for when I am
going for a quick run to the store
The CM9 fits the pocket carry role for me, but I am beginning to think differently
Recently I had the opportunity to shoot a LCR and using the pocket holster
found that I could pull the LCR from my pocket MUCH quicker than the CM9
This has started to bother me a bit, as there MAY be a situation where a fast draw may be needed.
I had a client that practiced using the "21 foot" test. I have had it pointed out to me that this test is named after a man named Tueller
The 21 foot test is having someone start from a stop and run directly toward you and have you cleanly draw and protect yourself (obviously with an unloaded weapon)
21 feet may seem like a long way away, but it goes quickly
I do ok with an IWB setup but not so good with a pocket carry, and not as fast with my CM9, which is smaller than what many people say they pocket carry.
I can definitely draw from the pocket and I do better with a little fuller pocket.
But it, still isnt fast
Looking back to the LCR, it actually has a taller height than the CM9 , and its longer as well.... It draws easier because of the more rounded top, and because when compared with the CM9 nose down, the height of the LCR is almost 1/2 inch less.
You can also see from this comparision that the backend of the semi is at an extreme angle that would lend itself to catch in the pocket.
Semi vs Revolver 1.JPG
For those that pocket carry a pistol bigger than the CM9, you have a talent that I dont have for fast pocket draw.
My CM9 may be heading toward IWB carry only
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June 11th, 2012 05:57 PM
June 11th, 2012 06:57 PM
Very good thread.
I was just considering this issue of drawing from a pocket last night while in a Love's convenience store restroom while returning home from an out-of-state trip. A character had entered and I was toting a Colt Detective Special in a De Santis Nemesis holster. Realistically no speed is available with pocket holsters in my experience, using the same brand for both snub revolvers or a P3AT.
I'd like to hear more on this topic from others.
“No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”
Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893
June 11th, 2012 07:22 PM
I was able to draw my LCR quickly from a DeSantis "Nemesis" pocket holster and the CM9 came out easily with another brand which I can't remember the name of right now. The LCR is also easily drawn from a Simply Rugged OWB holster, in my experience.
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June 11th, 2012 07:26 PM
Stand 21 feet from a wall, see if you can draw before you run into it. :)
There's actually some value in that, as I don't know many people who would stand still while someone is running at them in attack mode. Drawing from your pocket while moving is harder than doing so while standing still.
June 11th, 2012 07:37 PM
I can draw my M&P 9c from my Comp-Tac Infidel at my 4:00 IWB a hair faster than my Ruger LCP from my DeSantis Superfly in my F/R pocket, but I'm completely confident that it is a negligible difference.
June 11th, 2012 07:46 PM
good thread,i also carry the LCR .38cal in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster and get extremely quick draws with this set-up..one of the reasons is Hogue Tamer grip,fits like a glove and easy to grab on to.. can't say which one is faster though,don't own the cm9...
June 11th, 2012 07:51 PM
“Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” - Jeff Cooper
Practice, training, mindset & equipment
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June 11th, 2012 07:52 PM
My Seecamp comes out effortlessly. I have a high noon pocket holster for my xd9sc. I never use it as there is no way to smoothly get it out of any pocket I have.
June 11th, 2012 08:50 PM
Interesting. I wonder if this can be equalized by training. I practice drawing my Sig P238, and used to snag my sights on my pocket occasionally. With practice, this no longer happens, and I can access it very quickly.
"My problem with life is not that it is rational nor that it is irrational, but that it is almost rational." - G.K. Chesterton
June 11th, 2012 08:53 PM
I've pocket carried a number of guns, including a Kahr PM9 (Basically the same as the CM9) & a S&W 442 (Similar to the LCR). I too have found that the revolver's easier to draw from pocket carry. I thought I've read something along those lines a number of yrs ago, too (Like 15 or more yrs ago), but I'm not 100% positive on that. The cylinder causes the grip to not lay flat, which allows your fingers to grasp it easier, plus the enclosed hammer is part of it, too, I think. Yes, training should fix that, but all things being equal, that is one of pluses of the snubbie.
The Tueller drill you mention should be familiar with people in LE & maybe elsewhere, depending on their training. It originally involved having someone armed with a knife run at a subject (Typically a LEO) from 21' away (Or 7 yds). People quickly realize the limits of their equipment &/or training, especially if they don't move.
The Tueller drill or other Force on Force training usually brings out the limitations of certain carry methods. Because of it, I don't carry behind the hip anymore (Appendix or at about 3 o'clock for IWB carry) & never really likes SOB carry.
"Use human means as though divine ones didn't exist, and divine means as though there were no human ones." Baltasar Gracian
Integrated Close Combat
Glock 19 & 26, Kahr CM9 & P45, Para P12, Kel-Tec P-32, S&W 442, & Dan Wesson 14-2.
June 11th, 2012 08:58 PM
I believe a lot of this depends on the pants. I wear 5.11 pants so there is no problem getting a gun out. Regular jeans or cheap cargo pants might present a problem IMO
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June 11th, 2012 08:59 PM
Edited......... Interesting post.......
Originally Posted by dean1818
Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!
June 11th, 2012 09:02 PM
I just put a down payment on a LCR myself, as a possible replacement for my temperamental PM9. One thing I noticed when I tried it in my pocket at the gun store is that the revolver's grip (if it is visible at the top of the pocket) doesn't look like a gun. A semi auto is given away by the magazine in the grip; the revolver just looks like a black "something."
I'm looking forward to trying it out.
The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger SP101, LCR, LCP (2), Mini 14; Remington 870; Marlin 336 .30-30
June 11th, 2012 09:17 PM
with a 642 its a lot faster and easier to shoot through the pocket. just be careful about the zipper--you do no want to hit it with the bullet.
practice that point shooting with your old coats. be warned that the pocket catches fire half the time...
Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them
June 11th, 2012 09:19 PM
OK, a few questions for you to answer on pocket carry:
Forget the '21 foot rule'; what about if someone gets in your face while the gun is pocketed? (less than 5 ft) Can you still draw it without getting jammed up?
Can you access it with your off-hand if needed? (weapon-side hand may be injured or otherwise occupied)
Can you access if you are on your back? Side? With an attacker on top of you?
What about while getting off the "X"? (I don't mean the casual side-step taught on the square range - I'm talking real-world movement)
Personally, I've found more liabilities with pocket carry than positives.
Merely 'having a gun' is a cop-out if you can't get to it to fight.
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