Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included)

This is a discussion on Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included) within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Accuracy at speed is dependant on grip, sight tracking, sight alignment and trigger control. The importance of each of those varies. If your shooting a ...

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Thread: Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included)

  1. #16
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    Accuracy at speed is dependant on grip, sight tracking, sight alignment and trigger control.
    The importance of each of those varies.
    If your shooting a all steel 22lr you can have a sloppy grip.
    If you're shooting a sub-compact 45acp grip becomes much more important.
    Same with trigger control.
    A 3# 1911 or 5# Glock trigger is more tolerant of slaps and jerks than a 8# DAO Sig.
    Same with sight alignment and tracking.
    Blanket statements like "trigger control" isn't a factor are blatantly false.

    btw: fast shooting at a 3" target at 5 yards should be <.25 splits, and at that speed I gaurantee there's plenty of time for a controlled trigger press.
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  3. #17
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    This makes sense to me. The problem is that I don't know if it practically applies to ME or a lot of other shooters. Tangle, I've watched your vids and your a REALLY REALLY REALLY good shot. I think the same thing when I watch some hicok45 vids. You have been shooting longer than I have been alive. You have probably shot hundreds of thousands if not a million rounds in your time. Your level of experience gives you a level of gun control that I think is beyond most shooters. It's probably not much different than picking up a pen and signing your signature. It's something that's so ingrained into your brain and hands that when you pick up a gun and shoot it I doubt you even think about. Because of that I think trigger control probably doesn't effect you as much because your hands and brain automatically correct for it. You could probably shoot a gun with a 20 pound trigger with no issues. Me on the other hand - my trigger control and gun control are tied together. If I'm yanking on the trigger it's going to throw the gun out of a alignment.
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  4. #18
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    SHOW OFF.

    Thanks.
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  5. #19
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    Great post!!! I always say "pull that trigger hard and fast, just like you would if the crap is going down and your adrenaline is pumping." Practice that way, learn that way, and realize that when the stuff does go down you should be focusing on the target and not on your sights (or laser dot, or whatever else). Take it all in with both eyes while you're pulling like a mad man.
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Great post!!! I always say "pull that trigger hard and fast, just like you would if the crap is going down and your adrenaline is pumping." Practice that way, learn that way, and realize that when the stuff does go down you should be focusing on the target and not on your sights (or laser dot, or whatever else). Take it all in with both eyes while you're pulling like a mad man.
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  7. #21
    Member Array nwbackpacker's Avatar
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    In my opinion, and I'm relatively new to all this, part of good trigger control is knowing the reset point of your trigger, and utilizing that.

    There's a world of difference between letting the trigger do a full reset to fully forward position with your finger perhaps going so far forward to be off the trigger and then pulling it all the way back again for the next shot, compared with keeping your finger pressure engaged but reducing it just enough to let the trigger reset. I think the pros know this and do it instinctively, but new people need to be told, "hey you don't need to let the trigger go all the way forward before you shoot again".

    The rest of trigger control regarding slowly pulling the trigger until there is a surprise break is good advice for slow shooting and/or accurate shooting, depending on experience, but eventually you just speed that up to the point where it's not slow any more but the basics of the trigger pull are still intact.

    My 2 cents...
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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array wdbailey's Avatar
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    What you can do at speed after you've nailed the basics is an entirely different matter than handing a newbie a piece and letting them think they can jerk and slap and get good results

    If you have mastered the trick of dry firing while balancing coins on the slide/barrel then it's a good bet that you'll be able to maintain good gun control once you speed things up.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Dead serious.

    How many people do you see at the range staging triggers with one eye shut in a perfectly square stance and arms straight out and they are convinced they are ready to defend themselves? A lot. That's not how it happens. When the crap hits the fan and your adrenaline is rushing, the target is moving and engaging, you have seconds to make decisions and act, then all that "practice" as described above is not helping you a bit. Practice the way(s) it would likely go down.

    It's like basketball. Practicing nothing but free throws doesn't prepare you for the game. It doesn't hurt, but you're not ready to make the shot with someone in your face while you're on the move.
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Might be a bit of semantics, really. When I think of a "smooth consistent trigger pull" I am thinking of a trigger finger that moves independently of the rest of the hand. You can execute such quite rapidly. Where folks get thrown off target is when they jerk the trigger, and in so doing, they move or squeeze their hand - which throws off their aim.
    There could be some semantics involved but, hear it straight from the master himself:

    Be sure to catch his remarks at starting at the 3:40 mark. Notice in the shots following this mark that his finger leaves the trigger.

    Next be sure to get his comments starting at the 5:15 mark.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/actiontarget?v=YLRxohRdIys

    I watched that several times and went to the range - what he says worked for me. After some focused practice based on Rob's remarks, I began doing what I show in my video. Of course I'm nowhere near Rob's level, but I can still use the principles he uses.

    After I do a bit more training at 5 yards, I may move the target to 7 yds, I think that's the range Rob is shooting from. If I do that, I'm going to switch to an official IDPA target, but paper instead of cardboard (already have the targets) and start learning again. That should be interesting.
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ...Blanket statements like "trigger control" isn't a factor are blatantly false.
    So you're saying Rob Leatham doesn't know what he's talking about:

    Hear what Rob Leatham says starting at the 5:15 mark.

    actiontarget - YouTube
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Dead serious.

    How many people do you see at the range staging triggers with one eye shut in a perfectly square stance and arms straight out and they are convinced they are ready to defend themselves? A lot. That's not how it happens. When the crap hits the fan and your adrenaline is rushing, the target is moving and engaging, you have seconds to make decisions and act, then all that "practice" as described above is not helping you a bit. Practice the way(s) it would likely go down.

    It's like basketball. Practicing nothing but free throws doesn't prepare you for the game. It doesn't hurt, but you're not ready to make the shot with someone in your face while you're on the move.
    I also see youngsters slinging lead as fast as they can and getting 1 hit in 5 on their zombie targets at 10 yards, pendulums swing both ways. What a shooter of Leatham's caliber can do doesn't automatically translate into what the great unwashed masses can utilize effectively. Most people hardly have a solid grasp of the basics let alone advanced skills.
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  13. #27
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    ^^^^ Great video!!!!!!!!!!!
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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    I also see youngsters slinging lead as fast as they can and getting 1 hit in 5 on their zombie targets at 10 yards, pendulums swing both ways. What a shooter of Leatham's caliber can do doesn't automatically translate into what the great unwashed masses can utilize effectively. Most people hardly have a solid grasp of the basics let alone advanced skills.
    Very true. It takes purpose driven practice to find your personal balance between speed and effectiveness. Much like the golf swing. Without practice, one doesn't know the point at which how hard they can swing and still maintain accuracy. It is about tempo and timing. Nothing replaces practice in developing and finding that balance, which will be different for everyone.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    So you're saying Rob Leatham doesn't know what he's talking about:

    Hear what Rob Leatham says starting at the 5:15 mark.

    actiontarget - YouTube

    I think what we're missing here is a common understanding of exactly what Leatham's definition of "Jerking the Trigger" is in context to the lesson.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    This makes sense to me. The problem is that I don't know if it practically applies to ME or a lot of other shooters. Tangle, I've watched your vids and your a REALLY REALLY REALLY good shot. I think the same thing when I watch some hicok45 vids. You have been shooting longer than I have been alive. You have probably shot hundreds of thousands if not a million rounds in your time. Your level of experience gives you a level of gun control that I think is beyond most shooters. It's probably not much different than picking up a pen and signing your signature. It's something that's so ingrained into your brain and hands that when you pick up a gun and shoot it I doubt you even think about. Because of that I think trigger control probably doesn't effect you as much because your hands and brain automatically correct for it. You could probably shoot a gun with a 20 pound trigger with no issues. Me on the other hand - my trigger control and gun control are tied together. If I'm yanking on the trigger it's going to throw the gun out of a alignment.
    Rollo,
    Those are excellent points! First, thank you for the kind words about my shooting, I really appreciate that - they're encouraging. And, my hope in posting threads like this is that others will be encouraged too.

    As far as, "Me on the other hand - my trigger control and gun control are tied together. If I'm yanking on the trigger it's going to throw the gun out of a alignment." - you have to realize, I've come from that very place myself! I don't mean that in the arrogant way it may suggest, I just mean that I understand what you're saying, because I've been there myself.

    There's nothing especially wrong with trigger control, but like Rob says in the video, jerking the trigger is getting blamed for poor shooting when it isn't about trigger control - it's about gun control.

    I believe the popularity of the trigger control belief all too often is no more than a work-around. If we don't have sufficient control of our gun, then yes, we need to maximize trigger control. We have to do something to compensate for not controlling the gun or the gun is going to move. Then what? We become more and more dependent on trigger control which in turn masks the real issue - gun control. That can lead to, and often does, a more relaxed shooting style, which is even more dependent on trigger control - it's as if there's no escape. Keep in mind, I'm speaking from my experience; believe me, I've been down this road.

    From that comes the belief that the answer to shooting is trigger control. After all, that's what's working for us and every gun magazine we read about shooting hammers into our brain how important trigger control is. We believe it, practice it, and become trigger control junkies. That's exactly what happened to me!

    This is already too long of a reply, but you make so many accurate, good points, it's hard not to comment. I've read all the dry-fire claims. Dry-fire can be good, but it has to be kept in context. How does dry-fire help with recoil? What is it all too prone to result in? Maximized trigger control, minimized gun control. It minimizes gun control because there is nothing to control. So again we practice trigger control instead of gun control and there we are again!

    Also, dry-fire burns in some very undesirable habits. If I draw and dry-fire my Glock, what's the next thing I do? I rack the slide and holster in preparation for the next draw and dry-fire. Let's say I do that 1000 times a month. What am I training myself to do? Draw at lightening speed, fire one shot and rack the slide!

    I said that to say this: you are right that I get to shoot a lot and you are right that it makes a difference - it makes a big difference. But, one doesn't have to shoot nearly as much as I do to become a better shooter. I've had to learn a lot, slowly I'm embarrassed to admit, so much of my shooting is learning. What if you don't have to learn, you just have to do? You can become a much better shooter in a much shorter period of time, with much less rounds.

    I think the problem is, and I have this problem, is that it is difficult to shoot worse for a while to learn to shoot better. When we get good at something, we want to do it the way we're best at it. But getting better sometimes requires us to do some things differently, which diminishes our shooting, until the new, better technique brings us back to where we were and then beyond.
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