Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included)

This is a discussion on Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included) within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Speed is good, but accuracy is final. " Wyatt Earp I think the words of this old lawman are true to the spirit of the ...

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Thread: Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included)

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Speed is good, but accuracy is final. " Wyatt Earp

    I think the words of this old lawman are true to the spirit of the discussion, especially in a real modern shooting situation. He also stated " take your time in a hurry", which is all about gun control. You will not have time to pull off a properly target style trigger squeeze, but rather a hurried " manipulation " of the trigger while maintaining control of the muzzle.

    The more advancements in shooting skills we are learning today, make me realize it's really just revisiting techniques and skill sets used in the past. Only thing that has really changed are weapon platforms and the times.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    I think what we're missing here is a common understanding of exactly what Leatham's definition of "Jerking the Trigger" is in context to the lesson.
    Sounds pretty clear when says he is jerking the trigger every single shot and that traditionalists are going to hate hearing this. He says that like he's distinguishing a significant difference between trigger control and trigger jerking.

    It seems that in context, he is saying he can pull the trigger so fast that he considers it a jerk instead of trigger control.

    Plus keep in mind what I said in my OP:

    "I don't want to give the impression that trigger control can be ignored, or that one can just go out and yank on the trigger any ol way and get good accuracy - you'll be disappointed if you think that.

    But, what I do want to emphasize is that shooting at speed, is about gun control, not trigger control - at least not trigger control in the traditional sense. If you can control your gun so well that pulling the trigger doesn't disturb the gun, then it really doesn't matter how you pull the trigger does it? "
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    ^^^^ Great video!!!!!!!!!!!
    That it is!!!!
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Speed is good, but accuracy is final. " Wyatt Earp

    I think the words of this old lawman are true to the spirit of the discussion, especially in a real modern shooting situation. He also stated " take your time in a hurry", which is all about gun control. You will not have time to pull off a properly target style trigger squeeze, but rather a hurried " manipulation " of the trigger while maintaining control of the muzzle.

    The more advancements in shooting skills we are learning today, make me realize it's really just revisiting techniques and skill sets used in the past. Only thing that has really changed are weapon platforms and the times.
    Nicely put Gman!
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  6. #35
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    Trigger control is part of the whole package. It is necessary to pull the trigger without pulling the gun off target in order to get solid repeatable hits.

    If those guys are slapping the trigger they are doing it in exactly the same way each time and the gun is remaining on target. So they do in fact have great trigger control.

    Jim
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Also, dry-fire burns in some very undesirable habits. If I draw and dry-fire my Glock, what's the next thing I do? I rack the slide and holster in preparation for the next draw and dry-fire. Let's say I do that 1000 times a month. What am I training myself to do? Draw at lightening speed, fire one shot and rack the slide!
    Drifting off topic, but this is an important point. Kinda like folks who constantly shoot a double tap, then stop and reassess. They do not train to keep shooting until the threat is on the ground. Better is to shoot a burst to the chest, and then a burst to the head...keep repeating until the gun runs dry. Do not assume two shots will be enough.

    IIRC, a police officer was killed because he fired two shots, then dropped his magazine and attempted to reload - in the middle of a gunfight! - despite having many more rounds in the magazine. Why? Because that was how he trained. And now he is dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Drifting off topic, but this is an important point. Kinda like folks who constantly shoot a double tap, then stop and reassess. They do not train to keep shooting until the threat is on the ground. Better is to shoot a burst to the chest, and then a burst to the head...keep repeating until the gun runs dry. Do not assume two shots will be enough.

    IIRC, a police officer was killed because he fired two shots, then dropped his magazine and attempted to reload - in the middle of a gunfight! - despite having many more rounds in the magazine. Why? Because that was how he trained. And now he is dead.
    Very well put, 10thn! Great example - I think I remember that instance now that you mentioned it.

    There's another account of police officers emptying their revolvers in a gunfight and they chuck their brass on the ground and, in the middle of the gunfight, they start picking up their brass because that's the way they were trained.

    We do need to be careful how we train.
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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanJim View Post
    Trigger control is part of the whole package. It is necessary to pull the trigger without pulling the gun off target in order to get solid repeatable hits.
    That's exactly what I'm saying. If I (and Rob) jerk the trigger without disturbing the gun, do I have trigger control or gun control? Gun control, unless we're going to define a trigger jerk as trigger control.

    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanJim View Post
    ...If those guys are slapping the trigger they are doing it in exactly the same way each time and the gun is remaining on target. So they do in fact have great trigger control.
    Most would consider slapping the trigger to be poor trigger control, so how do they get by with poor trigger control? They have gun control.

    Rob is certainly trying to tell us something. He makes a point to emphasize he is jerking the trigger, which again, most would say is poor trigger control. So is it? Rob is very fast and accurate jerking the trigger. How does he do it? Gun control.

    I have to ask, if Rob says he is jerking the trigger every single shot, AND he is getting consistent hits, then does that mean jerking the trigger is the same as trigger control? There's no way to answer that by the widespread concept of trigger control. If we say jerking the trigger is not good trigger control, then Rob has poor trigger control and is telling us a bad way to shoot. If we say jerking the trigger is good control then why would it matter if we jerk the trigger?

    Accuracy at high rates of fire are about gun control. One can have all the trigger control he wants, but if he can't control the gun, he won't shoot fast.

    I understand the trigger control concept, I really do. I was taught it in four Gunsite courses, two Blackwater courses, one advanced handgun course at Thunder Ranch, and a few others. So I was well indoctrinated in the trigger control disipline. Then I watched Rob's videos (and others) and began to realize he's trying to show/tell us something differen. He emphasizes gun control and trigger jerks for high speed shooting. Why would he do that? Because it works. I went to the range and confirmed it works.
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  10. #39
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    I completely understand the lesson, what I have an issue with is describing what appears to be a quick, firm & rapid press of the trigger as "Jerking". To me "jerking" is an acceleration of the trigger press, during the trigger press. Ie: the trigger speed is faster at the end of the press than it was at the beginning of the press. A trigger press that remains constant no matter how quickly it's done is not "Jerking" as I understand it to apply to pressing the trigger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    I completely understand the lesson, what I have an issue with is describing what appears to be a quick, firm & rapid press of the trigger as "Jerking".
    sgb,
    I'm just thinking out loud here along with you and wondering, when Rob says he's jerking the trigger and emphasizes the need to jerk the trigger in order to make the par time, what is he actually meaning when he uses the term 'jerk' to describe how he pulls the trigger?

    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    ...To me "jerking" is an acceleration of the trigger press, during the trigger press. Ie: the trigger speed is faster at the end of the press than it was at the beginning of the press. A trigger press that remains constant no matter how quickly it's done is not "Jerking" as I understand it to apply to pressing the trigger.
    How on earth would you determine if a person accelerated the trigger press or used constant velocity?

    And again, is that what Rob is meaning - he accelerates the trigger instead of a rapid constant pull?

    Oh, BTW, sgb, I am enjoying the discussion with you. You make me think, and I hope you see my replies the same way. I'm not 'challenging' anything and don't want you to think I am.
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  12. #41
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    sgb,

    How on earth would you determine if a person accelerated the trigger press or used constant velocity?
    Comes from the old days teaching newbies to shoot double action revolvers, the natural tendency being to accelerate through the trigger resulting in the muzzle dipping at the end of the trigger stroke and grouping low. Easy to watch for on a DA revolver, harder to do so on many semi auto's.

    And again, is that what Rob is meaning - he accelerates the trigger instead of a rapid constant pull?
    I actually think he means just the opposite. He references a slow squeeze at the 5.38 mark in the one video, which is what we all teach in developing the basics, a slow build up of pressure until the sear break surprising us. Such technique won't work for faster shooting, what is needed is a quick constant pressure press of the trigger after it resets, which is still being in control of the trigger. He also references "jerking the trigger without moving anything else", to me "Jerking" the trigger is not having control, not utilizing the reset and accelerating through the trigger press which is going to affect ones ability to "not move anything else"

    That's why I stated earlier we need a common understanding for what Leatham is referring to as "jerking" so as to fully benefit from the lesson. I hope that all makes sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    ...I actually think he means just the opposite. He references a slow squeeze at the 5.38 mark in the one video, which is what we all teach in developing the basics, a slow build up of pressure until the sear break surprising us. Such technique won't work for faster shooting,...
    Which is what I've said from the OP,

    "But, what I do want to emphasize is that shooting at speed, is about gun control, not trigger control - at least not trigger control in the traditional sense. If you can control your gun so well that pulling the trigger doesn't disturb the gun, then it really doesn't matter how you pull the trigger does it?"

    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    ...what is needed is a quick constant pressure press of the trigger after it resets, which is still being in control of the trigger.
    I'll agree what is needed is a quick trigger pull, but to claim we can pull a trigger at a constant speed or with constant pressure in 0.22 seconds is questionable. Actually we have to pull the trigger much faster than that. Much of that time is taken up recovering from recoil.

    A constant pressure on the trigger will produce constant acceleration, not constant speed unless the back pressure on the trigger moderates the acceleration.

    When we pull a trigger quickly, i.e. fractions of a second, generally we apply a force to the trigger and it accelerates as it will until the shot breaks - we don't have a chance to do any speed or force control. In slow fire we can, because the brain has time to sense and send a corrective signal to the trigger finger to slow it down or speed it up. That's what is known as a closed loop system. But in rapid fire, we don't just simply speed up that process, it's a different profile and process. In rapid fire we use what is called an open loop system. That means we have no feedback for controlling or correcting anything.

    So when we do rapid fire we simply have to take what we get when we apply pressure to the trigger. I know for me personally, there is no way I control the pressure on the trigger or how fast it accelerates. I pull it with a lot of force and it breaks. I have no idea what speed the trigger reaches or the acceleration profile that gets it there.

    That appears to be what Rob is getting at. In rapid fire, you jerk the trigger, i.e. you are NOT concerned about constant pressure or acceleration profiles. You just pull it with plenty of force and let it do what it will. To compensate for loss of trigger control, he uses gun control.
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  14. #43
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    Yep, Rob's a self-declared slapper. Seems like I just was reading about his technique recently and, if I'm recalling correctly, one of his competition pistols was set up with about a 2 or 3 pound trigger as well (which he emphasized as being a horrible option for personal defense).

    What about thinking about it as a 3-pronged approach? Can't recall if this is something I saw or read, or just popped into my head...Grip (gun control as you call it), sight alignment, and trigger control. Get any two perfect and the other off a bit, you'll probably still get a hit:

    Great grip and sight alignment, you'll probably get a hit no matter how you hit the trigger...sort of like the gun being sighted in in a Ransom rest.

    Perfect sight alignment and trigger control, the pistol could be sitting on a table without being gripped beyond what's necessary for a perfect trigger press, and you'll get a hit.

    Great grip and perfect trigger control but a so-so sight picture...this one will spread as distance comes into play (a la Flash Sight Picture).

    Want to mess with them all? Try Bullseye competitions. It'll really show you what's going on...but I'll admit, the timed and rapid fire targets of many shooters often end up with better groupings than the slow fire as they do what Tangle is describing.

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    Good discussion. Tangle, I missed the link to the vid in your post. Do you know if Rob teaches in detail his fast & accurate "trigger jirk" on any of his vids? Thanks!
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Which is what I've said from the OP,

    "But, what I do want to emphasize is that shooting at speed, is about gun control, not trigger control - at least not trigger control in the traditional sense. If you can control your gun so well that pulling the trigger doesn't disturb the gun, then it really doesn't matter how you pull the trigger does it?"


    I'll agree what is needed is a quick trigger pull, but to claim we can pull a trigger at a constant speed or with constant pressure in 0.22 seconds is questionable. Actually we have to pull the trigger much faster than that. Much of that time is taken up recovering from recoil.

    A constant pressure on the trigger will produce constant acceleration, not constant speed unless the back pressure on the trigger moderates the acceleration.

    When we pull a trigger quickly, i.e. fractions of a second, generally we apply a force to the trigger and it accelerates as it will until the shot breaks - we don't have a chance to do any speed or force control. In slow fire we can, because the brain has time to sense and send a corrective signal to the trigger finger to slow it down or speed it up. That's what is known as a closed loop system. But in rapid fire, we don't just simply speed up that process, it's a different profile and process. In rapid fire we use what is called an open loop system. That means we have no feedback for controlling or correcting anything.

    So when we do rapid fire we simply have to take what we get when we apply pressure to the trigger. I know for me personally, there is no way I control the pressure on the trigger or how fast it accelerates. I pull it with a lot of force and it breaks. I have no idea what speed the trigger reaches or the acceleration profile that gets it there.

    That appears to be what Rob is getting at. In rapid fire, you jerk the trigger, i.e. you are NOT concerned about constant pressure or acceleration profiles. You just pull it with plenty of force and let it do what it will. To compensate for loss of trigger control, he uses gun control.
    We'll simply have to disagree then on the definition of "Jerking".
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