Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included)

This is a discussion on Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included) within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by cj ...What about thinking about it as a 3-pronged approach? Can't recall if this is something I saw or read, or just ...

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Thread: Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included)

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by cj View Post
    ...What about thinking about it as a 3-pronged approach? Can't recall if this is something I saw or read, or just popped into my head...Grip (gun control as you call it), sight alignment, and trigger control. Get any two perfect and the other off a bit, you'll probably still get a hit:
    I like it! But only for controlled slow fire. Still I like that!

    In rapid fire, the only one that will work is the sight picture and gun control. Let me explain why.

    When we're shooting in fractions of a second, we literally have no trigger control. I know some think we do, but we really don't. What control would you have in say 0.2 seconds? You don't have time to moderate the trigger, i.e. control the pressure, velocity, or acceleration of the trigger. How could the brain possibly sense any one of those and get the appropriate correction to the muscle group of the correct magnitude to correct or control anything? It can't; it's not humanly possible.

    So in effect in rapid fire, again, i.e. fractions of a second, we are simply applying a force to the trigger - there is no control to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cj View Post
    ...Great grip and sight alignment, you'll probably get a hit no matter how you hit the trigger...sort of like the gun being sighted in in a Ransom rest.
    Good example, of course we can't hold a gun like a Ransom rest, but that's certainly the idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpate View Post
    Good discussion. Tangle, I missed the link to the vid in your post. Do you know if Rob teaches in detail his fast & accurate "trigger jirk" on any of his vids? Thanks!
    It is a good discussion and thanks! Here's the only link I've seen where Rob talks about this. I don't know if there is other vids or not. I kind of suspect for us to get much more we'd have to buy something - a DVD or take a class:

    actiontarget - YouTube
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    We'll simply have to disagree then on the definition of "Jerking".
    That's the great thing sgb - we can agree to disagree when we need to.

    My definition of jerk is quite different than yours, but similar too. I define trigger jerk as when we pull the trigger faster than we can make corrective actions while we're pulling it. IOW, a jerk is when we pull the trigger too fast for the brain to sense the force, and/or speed, and/or acceleration of the trigger, and get a correcting signal to the muscles at the right time and magnitude to control the trigger.

    If the body cannot control the speed, acceleration, or force on the the trigger, we are no longer in a controlled trigger mode. But, that doesn't mean we are not in control of the gun, just the trigger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    In rapid fire, the only one that will work is the sight picture and gun control. Let me explain why.
    Not arguing that at all. I think the 3-pronged thing works for just about any type of shooting...each may not work in every situation, but at least 2 have to be there to get the hits.

    Now that I think about it, I think this came from the Magpul video where they demonstrate holding the pistol upside-down and maybe pull the trigger with their pinkie. Good sight alignment and trigger pull, lousy grip. Can't recall the other demonstrations.

    But I'll agree that different situations call for the different tools, and it's good to have them all in your repertoire. I know for sure that in a short range rapid confrontation, I'd be jerking/slapping the heck out of that trigger! I'd hope my grip would be there, and that I'd have time to at least raise up to see a sight (or even better, two!), but I'd probably be slapping away the whole way up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cj View Post
    Not arguing that at all. I think the 3-pronged thing works for just about any type of shooting...each may not work in every situation, but at least 2 have to be there to get the hits.

    Now that I think about it, I think this came from the Magpul video where they demonstrate holding the pistol upside-down and maybe pull the trigger with their pinkie. Good sight alignment and trigger pull, lousy grip. Can't recall the other demonstrations.

    But I'll agree that different situations call for the different tools, and it's good to have them all in your repertoire. I know for sure that in a short range rapid confrontation, I'd be jerking/slapping the heck out of that trigger! I'd hope my grip would be there, and that I'd have time to at least raise up to see a sight (or even better, two!), but I'd probably be slapping away the whole way up!
    We're good cj just enjoying a discussion.

    That demo, as I understand it from your description, applies ONLY to slow fire. And I have no problem at all with that.

    This thread is specifically about accurate, rapid fire. For rapid fire only gun control and sight picture work at the accuracy I show in the video of the OP.
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    Slap and jerk the trigger on a 8-10# DAO and prove to me that trigger control doesn't matter.
    I can slap a 2# SA 1911 trigger (or even a 5# Glock trigger) all day and get my hits, especially with a 3" target at 5 yards.
    That doesn't prove anything other than a light short trigger can be slapped as long as you have a good grip and still allow hits on a medium probability target.
    Drop down to a 2" dot at 7 yards and maintain .35 or faster splits and get back to me on how well jerking the trigger works.
    Leatham is a gamer (and a hell of a shooter) and his trigger technique works on game guns at high probability targets.
    The majority of IPSC Limited and Open shooters slap the hell out of their triggers and do great.
    But.
    You won't find a single defensive firearms instructor who advocates trigger slapping on duty pistols with carry weight triggers.
    Why? Because trigger control does matter when it comes to longer trigger pulls of higher weight.
    Trigger control in a vacuum isn't the answer.
    Grip in a vacuum isn't the answer.
    Sight tracking in a vacuum isn't the answer.
    IMO, you're drawing incorrect conclusions by misunderstanding the terminology and trying to make competition techniques applicable to defensive shooting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    For rapid fire only gun control and sight picture work at the accuracy I show in the video of the OP.
    No offense, but the speed and accuracy in the video are well above average but far from exceptional.
    You should easily be hitting .25-.30 splits on a 3" at 5 yards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    That's the great thing sgb - we can agree to disagree when we need to.

    My definition of jerk is quite different than yours, but similar too. I define trigger jerk as when we pull the trigger faster than we can make corrective actions while we're pulling it. IOW, a jerk is when we pull the trigger too fast for the brain to sense the force, and/or speed, and/or acceleration of the trigger, and get a correcting signal to the muscles at the right time and magnitude to control the trigger.

    If the body cannot control the speed, acceleration, or force on the the trigger, we are no longer in a controlled trigger mode. But, that doesn't mean we are not in control of the gun, just the trigger.
    I think you are underestimating the speed at which people can control the trigger press.
    With a Walther P99 I can do Bill Drills with controlled .15-.18 splits.
    My grip is the foundation and sight tracking is controlling my trigger finger.
    All that's happening in <.20 of a second.
    You know the difference between the .15 split and a .18 or .19? A conscious decision to let the sights settle and adjusting trigger press speed to allow that settle time.

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    Looks like even when we are in agreement on gun control there is some disagreement on how this control should be implemented.

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    Jeeze. I worked at a range and the average shooter can't come close to reproducing what Tangle achieves shooting at 7yds with 3 secs btwn shots. Thank you for starting this. I think a lot of this is the difference bwtn working with the average shooter and those that have taken the time to really work on their skills. You have to work differently with experienced shooters than new/untrained shooters as the skill levels are different. I'd be willing to bet that the pro's trigger "jerk" is straight back vs. the average shooter's "jerk" pushes or pulls the trigger/gun to one side or the other. (Damn, just deleted a diatribe that I was working on to get to that conclusion). I also think harping on trigger press/squeeze is still vitally important for the average shooter as they just don't have the full understanding of how a sight picture actually works and can't control a firearm near as well as the pro's just due to differences in strength of the distinct muscles involved. Also, a beginner's trigger jerk is a mental problem, which is why dry firing works to cure it - it's can also be accompanied by a wince and shutting of their eyes. A pro's trigger jerk is deliberate and doesn't hamper the other aspects of their shooting. Look at how little his muzzle rises and gun moves in the shot strings.

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    I am reminded of all the wannabe basketball stars who nearly bit their tongues off trying to emulate Michael Jordan. People would be wise to realize that you can't jump up to the level of a top talent and do some of the things folks like that can get away with before you put in the work on the basics

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    Tangle, out of curiosity when you were shooting your 5 shot strings did you have both eyes open or have your non dominant eye closed? I ask because typically when I practice I shoot with one eye closed as I'm looking down the sights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    I think you are underestimating the speed at which people can control the trigger press.
    With a Walther P99 I can do Bill Drills with controlled .15-.18 splits.
    My grip is the foundation and sight tracking is controlling my trigger finger.
    All that's happening in <.20 of a second.
    You know the difference between the .15 split and a .18 or .19? A conscious decision to let the sights settle and adjusting trigger press speed to allow that settle time.
    All you are talking about is pulling the trigger faster. That's NOT trigger control. I think we need to understand what trigger control means. Control means we have the ability to modify the trigger speed etc. while it's in motion. I think some are confusing a consistent trigger pull with trigger control and there's a big difference. If one initiates an action that, after the action starts, we cannot modify the action, then we do not have control. Control is the ability modify the action as it takes place and is in motion.

    We don't have trigger control at 0.15, 0.18, etc. times. Can you modify the speed of the trigger while it is traveling rearward? No. If you could, the ultimate demonstration of this amazing control would be the ability to stop the trigger half way through it's stroke.

    In slow fire, I can pull the trigger to the half way point and stop it, release it and start again. I can sense and pull the trigger slower or faster. That's trigger control. In rapid fire, I cannot do any of that; I can only initiate the action and let it proceed as it will. I can't speed it up or slow it down or stop it mid stroke, and I seriously doubt you or anyone else can. Our brain loop is just not fast enough, the shot is gone before we can sense the trigger position.

    No, I cannot sense the difference in a 0.15 or 0.18 second split time. I have to look at my timer to see what it was. The human being does not have a mind that keeps time well. I've shot what I thought was gonna be a record for me only to look at the shot timer and be disappointed. And I've thought the opposite as well.

    The split times you gave are significantly faster than Rob's split times when he shoots the 10 rounds in three seconds. Rob is timing from the draw and his draw to fire is close to a second. That only leaves 2 seconds to fire 10 shots. There is no split time for the first shot, so there are only 9 split times for the 10 shots. Two seconds divided by 9 shots gives 0.22 seconds between shots. Your 0.15 second splits are 46% faster than Rob's split times. Yet, Rob says that in order for him to shoot 46% slower than you do, he has to jerk the trigger.

    Since there is some disagreement about what the term 'jerk' means, here are some dictionary definitions:

    Jerk - bumps and jolts, or cause somebody or something to do this; to pull somebody or something with a sudden strong movement; a sudden strong pulling movement; moving in jerks. That doesn't sound like trigger control, yet Rob says he jerks the trigger. I believe him. I do not believe he is redefining the term 'jerk' to describe a controlled trigger break.

    One might argue that he means he's not using a slow trigger control in the traditional sense, but he is simply speeding the process up. That's not what he is saying, else he would say it in those words rather than use a well defined word like jerk. I believe he simply means he is applying a sudden, strong movement. That's not trigger control, it is a definition of jerk, not trigger control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    Slap and jerk the trigger on a 8-10# DAO and prove to me that trigger control doesn't matter.
    Actually, I can and have done that. At Gunsite we had some extra time in an Advanced Tactics Class (5 day) and so the instructor gave us an interesting drill to do. A target would turn toward us for 1.5 seconds. We had to shoot the target as fast as we could until it turned back.

    I was shooting a 686 revolver! Every time I fired all six rounds, double action, with time to spare. Given about a 0.25 second for the brain to recognize the starting stimulus, which I believe is optimistically fast, but reasonable, that leaves 1.25 seconds to fire 6 shots. That's an average split time of 0.25 seconds with a DA revolver, but recall, I had time to spare. I shot the 6 rounds repeatedly well before the time was up.

    At that speed, there is no way I could have modified my trigger action once it was in motion. If I do NOT have the ability to control the action of my trigger once it is in motion, then I don't have trigger control, and neither do you.

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ...I can slap a 2# SA 1911 trigger (or even a 5# Glock trigger) all day and get my hits, especially with a 3" target at 5 yards.

    ...That doesn't prove anything other than a light short trigger can be slapped as long as you have a good grip and still allow hits on a medium probability target.
    One can slap any trigger, long or short.

    Nor does it in anyway disclose what control you have over the trigger once it is in motion.

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ...Drop down to a 2" dot at 7 yards and maintain .35 or faster splits and get back to me on how well jerking the trigger works.
    I can't come anywhere close to doing that with trigger control or trigger jerks. And you know what, I seriously doubt you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ...Leatham is a gamer (and a hell of a shooter) and his trigger technique works on game guns at high probability targets.
    He shoots a box stock XDm the very same way. I expect Rob and peers would do quite well in a gunfight.

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ...The majority of IPSC Limited and Open shooters slap the hell out of their triggers and do great.
    That is interesting, all the very fast shooters do "...GREAT..." by slapping the trigger. We've copied just about everything else they do into SD shooting, why wouldn't we want copy the way they do so great in rapid fire?

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ...But.
    You won't find a single defensive firearms instructor who advocates trigger slapping on duty pistols with carry weight triggers.
    I haven't said anything about slapping the trigger. I said accurate rapid fire isn't about trigger control, it's about gun control and sight picture. Rob is the one that used the term 'jerk', not slap.

    Instructors may not say it, but they do teach trigger pull faster than the human brain can control it. One form is a double tap. I have personally taken courses, some from sponsors here on CC, and emphasis was on shots on target as fast as you can get hits and not a word about trigger control was mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ...Why? Because trigger control does matter when it comes to longer trigger pulls of higher weight.
    If one can pull a trigger of higher weight in 0.25 sec. split times, he will NOT have control of a higher weight trigger. He can have a consistent trigger pull shot after shot, but that's not the same at all as trigger control.

    Remember my revolver times at Gunsite. I certainly did not use trigger control. My mind/body is just not fast enough at those speeds to sense an error in the trigger motion, send a corrective signal to the finger muscles in time and of the correct magnitude to correct the problem. I seriously doubt anyone could.

    I think you and a few others are mistaking consistent trigger pull for trigger control, there is a significant difference.

    The term 'control' is well defined, it is the ability to modify and control an action while the action is in progress. In slow fire we can control how fast we want the trigger to move up to the limits of our human feedback loop speed. Once we exceed that speed, we lose control OF THE TRIGGER, not the gun or where it's indexed, nor necessarily the ability to shoot accurately. In slow fire, because we as humans have control at slower speeds, we can stop the trigger at a point along it's stroke, we can speed up or slow down the trigger speed.

    But at higher rates of fire, we lose the ability to control the trigger once it's set in motion. We can have a consistent trigger pull shot after shot, that's what Rob is talking about, but that's quite different than trigger control as it's taught in slower rates of fire.

    One definition of jerk is, "...a sudden strong pulling movement". I believe that is what Rob is referring to when he uses the term jerk. And we could expand that into a consistent repeatable trigger pull, but it is not, in any way, synonymous with trigger control.

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ...
    Trigger control in a vacuum isn't the answer.
    Grip in a vacuum isn't the answer.
    Sight tracking in a vacuum isn't the answer.
    No one stated or implied that. What I said was that accuracy in rapid fire is not about trigger control, it is about gun control and sight picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ...IMO, you're drawing incorrect conclusions by misunderstanding the terminology and trying to make competition techniques applicable to defensive shooting.
    I'm an engineer; I pretty well understand control, control terminology, and control principles.

    As for the term 'jerk', I'm using the definitions as defined by the dictionary. I pretty well understand that simple term too.

    Here's how it really is: There's a big difference between consistent trigger 'jerks' and control of the trigger throughout the trigger stroke. The first just starts the trigger in motion but cannot modify the trigger motion once the trigger is in motion; the latter actually has control of the trigger motion and can modify it at any time throughout the trigger stroke.

    Who says accurate rapid fire should only be a skill used for competition? Seems to me that would be a very good skill for SD. BTW, I don't compete - at all.

    And, we should remember that most of our modern SD techniques come from - competition. Modified sometimes, but competitive techniques have redefined defensive shooting. We now shoot in a two hand grip instead of one hand as was taught as defensive shooting. Where did the two hand grip come from? Competition. What stance is now taught for defensive shooting? The I or Weaver variations - where did they come from? Competition. Where did the thumbs forward grip come from? Competition. Where did reloading techniques come from? Competition. The list goes on.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with applying competition techniques to SD shooting if it helps us shoot better. You're not seriously suggesting that we NOT apply techniques proven in competition to SD shooting are you? If we took out the competitive influences, there would NOT be much left.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Jeeze. I worked at a range and the average shooter can't come close to reproducing what Tangle achieves shooting at 7yds with 3 secs btwn shots. Thank you for starting this. I think a lot of this is the difference bwtn working with the average shooter and those that have taken the time to really work on their skills. You have to work differently with experienced shooters than new/untrained shooters as the skill levels are different.
    I agree with that as it is my current position as well. But do we think that because that's the way we've always done it, or have we actually tried something else to compare it to?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...I'd be willing to bet that the pro's trigger "jerk" is straight back vs. the average shooter's "jerk" pushes or pulls the trigger/gun to one side or the other. (Damn, just deleted a diatribe that I was working on to get to that conclusion).
    I agree that the jerk as properly applied to shooting should be a straight back action and in practiced shooters it is.

    But what you are describing about the average shooter is something executed improperly. That's a matter of training. But I can't help but wonder if we had taught them proper trigger jerking to start with...

    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...I also think harping on trigger press/squeeze is still vitally important for the average shooter as they just don't have the full understanding of how a sight picture actually works and can't control a firearm near as well as the pro's just due to differences in strength of the distinct muscles involved.
    Again I agree and I think you've identified a common misconception in the thread. That is that this applies to novice or weak shooters. But if they are novice or weak, why are they trying to shoot so fast?

    This thread is not about how novice shooters should shoot, but about accuracy in rapid fire. If one is a novice, he shouldn't be attempting this. But there are probably some that are ready and quite capable of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...Also, a beginner's trigger jerk is a mental problem, which is why dry firing works to cure it - it's can also be accompanied by a wince and shutting of their eyes. A pro's trigger jerk is deliberate and doesn't hamper the other aspects of their shooting. Look at how little his muzzle rises and gun moves in the shot strings.
    You are 100% correct! Probably quite often, the gun is disturbed BEFORE the trigger is pulled. One very common error shooters have is recoil anticipation. So when they are on the edge of pulling the trigger, the gun dips, then they pull the trigger.

    You're all over what this thread is about. The reduced muzzle rise indicates gun control. The hits indicate sight alignment and gun control, the way the trigger is pulled doesn't matter at those speeds.

    Actually, it is surprising how much Rob's gun rises. He says in one video that he sees his sight go about 4 feet above the target!
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