Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included) - Page 5

Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included)

This is a discussion on Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included) within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by wdbailey I am reminded of all the wannabe basketball stars who nearly bit their tongues off trying to emulate Michael Jordan. People ...

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Thread: Accurate rapid fire with a SD gun isn't about trigger control (shooting vid included)

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdbailey View Post
    I am reminded of all the wannabe basketball stars who nearly bit their tongues off trying to emulate Michael Jordan. People would be wise to realize that you can't jump up to the level of a top talent and do some of the things folks like that can get away with before you put in the work on the basics
    This isn't about wannabes. It's about people that are interested in learning to shoot accurately but faster.

    But you are right, this thread is not about how to learn to shoot. It is about how to shoot accurately at speed.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by beni View Post
    Tangle, out of curiosity when you were shooting your 5 shot strings did you have both eyes open or have your non dominant eye closed? I ask because typically when I practice I shoot with one eye closed as I'm looking down the sights.
    I shoot with both eyes open. I suspect you've tried that and couldn't shoot as well perhaps?

    That's a common problem and I think you can train yourself to use both eyes. First, be sure you know which eye is dominant. If you are shooting from that eye and still having problems, Todd Jarrett suggests putting some scotch tape over the lens of the shooting glasses on the non-shooting side.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    No offense, but the speed and accuracy in the video are well above average but far from exceptional.
    You should easily be hitting .25-.30 splits on a 3" at 5 yards.
    You're really having a problem with this aren't you.

    How do you know what I should easily be shooting? Does that "...easily be hitting .25 - .30 splits on 3" at 5 yards..." apply to everyone or just me?

    You do realize I'm almost 67 years old, had serious eye surgery lately, was wearing 'band-aid' contact lens when I shot this? So I ask again, how do you know what I should be shooting easily?

    I didn't say it's exceptional, but I will. The shooting in the video I show in the OP is exceptional. If you read some of the responses others have posted you'll see many agree.

    It's not on par with the best, but I never said it was. In fact, in one of my posts I stated I'm not nearly as good as Rob, or something to that effect.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I shoot with both eyes open. I suspect you've tried that and couldn't shoot as well perhaps?

    That's a common problem and I think you can train yourself to use both eyes. First, be sure you know which eye is dominant. If you are shooting from that eye and still having problems, Todd Jarrett suggests putting some scotch tape over the lens of the shooting glasses on the non-shooting side.
    Yes I have a hard time focusing on the sight with both eyes open. I'll have to try the scotch tape trick to see if that will help me focus on the front sight better.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by beni View Post
    Yes I have a hard time focusing on the sight with both eyes open. I'll have to try the scotch tape trick to see if that will help me focus on the front sight better.
    I'd be interested in hearing what you find. If you wouldn't mind, when you give the tape a try, drop me a PM.

    I can't recall this perfectly now, but Todd might have indicated you could even use more than one layer of tape at first. I guess the idea is to get used to shooting with the one eye but with both eyes open. Hopefully, as you uncover the non-shooting eye the training will have set in.

    Do let me know how it goes if you don't mind.
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    If someone were in a defensive shooting in which multiple shots were fired, I seriously doubt they could consciously recall "how" they pulled the trigger. Instincts and adrenaline take over and I would bet a small fortune that those in that situation are pulling hard and fast and not "squeezing" or "staging" or any other way you want to put it. I could be wrong, but I'm speculating trigger control isn't the first thought. It should be muscle memory. Again, much like golf, if you're thinking about the mechanics of the golf swing in the middle of a match, you've already lost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    But what you are describing about the average shooter is something executed improperly. That's a matter of training. But I can't help but wonder if we had taught them proper trigger jerking to start with...
    Actually, it is surprising how much Rob's gun rises. He says in one video that he sees his sight go about 4 feet above the target!
    I think it goes back to something I first heard from Keith Code in Twist of the Wrist (motorcycles) "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" - or you have to start out slow to learn to go smooth, as you get smooth, fast will come. As you push speed to the(your) limit, smooth goes out the window, and with it performance/accuracy - as seen in Rob's vid. It's just a difference in the point where smooth disappears. If new shooters never get the "smooth" instilled in them, their "jerk" will always be flawed. Most new shooters are never really taught and don't practice enough to get past the beginning stages. When Keith manipulates the clutch on a bike, I'm sure he does it about as fast as a new rider popping the clutch but where the new rider pops a wheelie and goes off to the side, Keith takes off smooth as butter. Another analogy from Mr. Code is you have $1 worth of attention. When you're first learning to ride you spend 95 cents on the physical attributes of riding - clutch, throttle, brake, countersteer, etc. As you get better, and only with practice, you spend less on the physical attributes (5 cents) and more on the mental aspects like what's going on around me, what are my reference points for entering the upcoming turn, etc. The same applies to guns. I spend little attention to my grip, trigger, stance which allows me to focus more on having the front sight on the target the moment the bullet leaves the barrel.

    I believe when Rob's muzzle was 4 ft over the target, he was demonstrating how high the muzzle climbed when he didn't have full control over the gun.
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    nedrgr21,

    Once again excellent points. I want to elaborate on one point you made - staging the trigger.

    Trigger staging exemplifies trigger control. In case there are some that may not be familiar with the term or technique, here's a brief description. At one time, don't know if it's still practiced a lot today, revolver shooters would pull their long DA trigger almost through it's entire stroke and stop it at a staging point. There's a little sweet spot on a revolver where the cylinder has already rotated and locked in place and all that's left to do is move the trigger just enough more to break the shot. It essentially turns a DA trigger into a SA trigger.

    People that are really good at staging the trigger can bring the trigger to the stage point quite quickly and impressively, pause or at minimum, change the velocity profile and then break the shot. That's true trigger control - the ability to modify the trigger while it is in motion.

    However, there is a speed limit to that process. I think that's one reason the technique is no longer as popular. As the shooter desires to increase his rate of fire, he will reach a speed where he can no longer stage the trigger - it becomes beyond the ability of the human's control loop speed. So what does he have to do to go faster? He has to give up the control he had over the trigger at slower speeds and use a different technique that allows him to go faster.

    While we may not stage triggers in semi-autos, the control principle still applies. At slow speeds we have enough control over the trigger to modify it's motion while it is in motion. E.g. when I was wearing contacts, just got rid of them Thursday I'm proud to say, when I shot slowly, sometimes as I pulled the trigger, regulating the pull speed with feedback control, my contact(s) would fog, maybe I blinked or something. I could have my trigger almost to the break point and still stop the shot - because I had control over the trigger. I'd simply reset it, clear the contact and start over.

    What I was exhibiting was true trigger control - the ability to modify the trigger action while it is in motion. I had full control of the pull speed, sometimes as long as 5 seconds, I could speed the trigger up, slow it down, even stop it just as easily as a revo shooter staging his trigger.

    But when I went to rapid fire, just as the revo shooter has to give up staging, I had to give up the ability to modify the trigger action while it was in motion - at some point, I'm going to say about 2 shots per second, the human control loop is just too slow to sense and respond to trigger errors and make adjustments. So what do we do to go faster? We do the same thing the revo shooter does - we have to understand we must give up trigger control for a different technique. Notice that is exactly compatible with what Rob says in his video.

    What we hope to substitute for control, as we obviously don't have control at high rates of fire or we could stop the trigger in mid stroke like we could at slow speeds, is a consistent trigger pull. This is different than control. It certainly lets us control when we pull the trigger and to a degree, how fast, but the technique is completely different than trigger control, and again, that's in harmony with what Rob is saying. Trigger control is a closed loop method where the mind senses the trigger action and sends control signals to modify the action as needed.

    Consistent trigger pull can be a part of the control loop, but at higher rates of fire the control loop opens and leaves only consistent trigger pull.

    Let's be clear about this. Rob leaves no doubt that he uses a trigger jerk, his word, to enable him to fire at the rate of fire he's demonstrating. He makes it clear that he cannot shoot that fast unless he jerks the trigger. But neither he nor I are suggesting shooters try this before they have some fundamentals well in hand. He and I are saying if you want to shoot fast, i.e. rapid fire, one of the things you will have to do is change your trigger pull technique.

    Now let's look at the term 'jerk'. What jerk is NOT, is another term for control. Jerk is an 'open loop' process. Some seem to think that when a novice jerks the trigger, he does it somehow differently than what Rob was saying. He does actually, he lets it move the gun and Rob doesn't. Some seem to think that the novice has some magical ability to change the trigger velocity or acceleration profile where accomplished shooters don't/can't do that. Well novices can't do that and don't do that. They simply apply more force to the trigger than needed and take what they get from the mechanics of the gun.

    That's exactly what Rob does except he doesn't allow the gun to move before or during trigger travel.

    Rob presses the trigger very quickly right? The force he applies to the trigger causes it to break the shot. There is no control going on. Force is the correct term BTW, not pressure. Trigger pull gauges measure force, not pressure; trigger pull specs are given in lbs not lbs per sq inch.

    Another misconception about a trigger jerk is that it has to be this huge, blatant action where the trigger finger starts from the muzzle of the gun and knocks the trigger to the rear, causing the gun go into orbit. Well, maybe that's an exaggeration, but you see where I'm going with this. A jerk need not be an unnecessary motion or force. It can just simply be a quick force with minimum finger movement. Notice that is consistent with how Rob shoots and consistent with one of the dictionary definitions of the word jerk - "a sudden strong pulling movement". While there are other definitions that indicate an unsteady motion, those don't fit what happens in a trigger jerk. One can only apply an initiating force to the trigger and the trigger responds. We have no further influence over the trigger - hence no trigger control.

    nedrgr21,
    You are correct about the 4 foot rise - that was without gun control. He says his sight rises about a foot over the target with gun control. Still that's a lot more than we'd think from watching him shoot in real time.
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