WARNING - Kahr CM, PM, MK 9mm Extended Magazines Flawed

WARNING - Kahr CM, PM, MK 9mm Extended Magazines Flawed

This is a discussion on WARNING - Kahr CM, PM, MK 9mm Extended Magazines Flawed within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just wanted to post a warning to anyone out there carrying a Kahr CM9, PM9, or MK9 as their concealed carry weapon. The Kahr ...

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Thread: WARNING - Kahr CM, PM, MK 9mm Extended Magazines Flawed

  1. #1
    New Member Array cswant88's Avatar
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    WARNING - Kahr CM, PM, MK 9mm Extended Magazines Flawed

    I just wanted to post a warning to anyone out there carrying a Kahr CM9, PM9, or MK9 as their concealed carry weapon. The Kahr 7rd extended magazines with grip extensions for these guns are flawed by design. I purchased 2 of them to give me that 1 extra round to defend myself if, God forbid, the need should ever arise. I have read countless other forums discussing issues with the Kahr magazines in which the magazine follower gets caught on the mag catch in the gun and causes a nosedive.

    I disassembled all of my magazines, 2 7rd and 2 6rd mags, and checked for anything impeding the follower as I pushed it into the gun. I had to do a little sanding on one of my 6rd mags, and have insured that none of my magazines will malfunction in this way. I suggest checking all of your magazines in this way before you consider carrying or heading off to the range with them. Now, for the flaw in the 7rd Kahr mags. I have had several issues recently with FTFs caused by the bullet nosediving and getting lodged under the feed ramp in my CM9. The 7rd mags do not exert enough pressure on the front of the bullet to keep angled in the ideal position for being fed into the chamber. When you fully load one of the magazines, you can push down on the front of the top round, and it will angle downward and not pop back up into its proper position. I have tested the 6rd mags and all of them exert enough pressure to pop the round back up into its proper feeding position.

    This problem is ONLY with the 7 round magazines. I chamber a round out of the 7rd mags, and then ejected the magazine to see the position of the next round in the magazine. The front of the bullet was already angled downward and ready to cause feeding issues. I pulled the bullet back up and put the magazine back into the gun, fired a round, and dropped the mag once more. Once again the next bullet in the magazine was angled in the downward position. This problem occurs in both of my 7rd mags, and in my buddies 7rd mag that came with his MK9. This issue is a big no no for anyone that relies on their weapon to function correctly in a high stress situation.

    I have had as many as for FTFs in one magazine due to this issue, and such failures can cost you your life in a defensive situation. Some of the time I was able to get the bullet to feed into the chamber by giving the back of the slide a firm tap, but most of the time I had to lock back the slide, drop the magazine, and correct the angle of the round. Now you may be able to send your magazines to Kahr, and they MIGHT send them back fixed, but I wouldn't deal with the hassle and waiting. I have found another solution, but it is going to cost you a little bit of money. This solution is not 100 percent, but it may be acceptable for some of you.

    I picked up a couple of Pro Mag 7rd magazines at a gun show, where I got a good deal on them. I didn't like them, so I decided to see how the Pro Mag follower and spring would perform in a Kahr magazine. The Kahr magazine accepted the Pro Mag spring and follower without any modifications. I loaded a mag and pushed down the front of the top round, and huzzah, it popped back into place. Off to the range. The 7rd Kahr mags fed flawlessly with the Pro Mag spring and follower. The reason I said this solution wasn't 100 percent is because I had some instances where my slide wouldn't lock back after the last round was fired. This issue has never happened to me before, so the most likely explanation is that the Pro Mag follower wasn't locking the slide back every time like it was supposed to.

    hasn't happened since in any of my unmodified 6rd mags. Needless to say, I desire 100 percent reliability in my concealed carry weapon, so I carry the 6rd mags exclusively with one in the chamber for total of 7rds. If you are just after the 7rd mags to give you a little extra something to hold on to, then invest in some Pearce Grip Extensions. I use them and they are great, also they were relatively inexpensive. I would be interested to hear if any other Kahr owners have experienced this issue, and if you found an alternate solution that I didn't think of. Thanks, and safe shooting.
    Last edited by JD; June 24th, 2012 at 06:11 PM.
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  2. #2
    Member Array lordj's Avatar
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    Never had any issues using the 7 round mags in my CM9. But, I carry mine with the 6 round mags cause I mostly pocket carry.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Crescentstar's Avatar
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    You should have learned by now that any issue with a Kahr isn't the gun's fault. It is always the owner's fault............
    "Clearly that's a YOU problem not a ME problem."

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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Yes, I had the same thing happen with the 7-rd mag that came with my PM9. This is a known issue - you can go over to Kahrtalk and find reports of same.

    I called Kahr, and they blamed the issue on "gripping the gun too tightly," which apparently causes the mag to tip forward around the mag catch under recoil, changing the feed angle enough to cause a nose-down jam. What is funny is that the Kahr fanbois always blame issues on the shooter "limp wristing" the gun, while Kahr blames a grip that is "too tight." So...which is it?

    As you note, if the round goes UNDER the bottom of the feed ramp (happened to me several times) you cannot clear the jam with a simple tap-rack.

    Kahr offered to exchange my 7-rd mag for a 6-rd one, and that seemed to solve that particular issue. However, my PM9 will not reliably feed 147 gr Gold Dots - so it is "ammo sensitive." The recoil spring I bought directly from Kahr would not fit in the gun properly, until they told me to snip half a coil off.

    My "alternate solution" to this behavior is to have recently put a down payment on a Ruger LCR revolver. This is my third PM9, and my fourth Kahr pistol. If the LCR works out, I will officially be off the pocket 9 merry go round, and I will no longer bother with Kahr's nonsense.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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    Member Array reade's Avatar
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    Lay several 9MM rounds down on the table like they would be in a magazine and you'll see the rounds are tapered leaving a gap at the bullet end. The more rounds you stack the greater this gap gets. This is a problem with the single stack 9MM period. Now if the magazine is longer than the total length of the bullets the rounds can sort of curve together (think of an AK 47 mag) and help reduce this gapping. It's my opinion the Kahr magazine is narrow allowing the gun to be "small" as was it's design purpose so you will have this problem with the PM9, it's just the way it is.

    I posted about a modification I did to my PM9 in another thread that really helped mine with "nose dives". If you look into the gun with the slide back and the mag installed you'll see there is a gap in between the top of the mag and the bottom of the feeding ramp. There is also a void ahead of the gap that allows the nose "dived" round to get hung under the ramp. I made a shim the fills that fills that void and keeps the nose dive from being able to hang under the ramp. This has worked for me and my gun runs fine (0 failures) on both the 6 and 7 round mags for over 200 rounds since I made the shim.

    Here's a picture of my shim


  6. #6
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    reade - You get an "A" for effort, and perhaps you should be in contact with the folks at Kahr!

    How do you keep your shim from coming loose and gumming up the works?
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array hardluk1's Avatar
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    I use as second an third mags a 7 round mag from my cw9 and a 8 round mags. Always worked 100%.

    There were some guys that were sand the followers rear section down to add more angle for all rounds that seems to help . Used a small dowell rod and sand paper?? And for whats is worth I practice with 124gr fmj and only use for CC 124gr gold dot bullets. Never tried a 147gr anything.

  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array VBVAGUY's Avatar
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    I also *thought* I read somewhere that the ProMags worked better and some people have used the ProMag followers on the Kahr magazines. Cost double in the end though. God Bless

  9. #9
    jyo
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    One of the reasons I went with the slightly larger CW9s (have two, one for me, one for wifey) is the longer grip---another reason is I have found that has the guns get smaller, you get more problems. Having said that, I have a friend with a PM9 that runs 100% with the factory 6rd mags and works just fine the times we used my 7rd factory mags from my CW9---the thing with Kahr seems to be that they are all individual and some work better than others. Good luck with yours!

  10. #10
    Member Array reade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    reade - You get an "A" for effort, and perhaps you should be in contact with the folks at Kahr!

    How do you keep your shim from coming loose and gumming up the works?
    I made the shim .0625 thick and then used 3M double stick tape that is .0625 as well, makes the shim 1/8" thick, this almost fills the void but doesn't actually touch anything in the gun. (other than a nose dive round that moved too far forward) The 3M tape is very sticky and it has a foam core making it take the shock of firing the pistol well. I got the idea from those Clipdraw universal mounts, they use the 3M tape. It's also not permanent and doesn't "deface" the gun in any way.

    I'm sure no one at Kahr would be impressed.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array Vaquero 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reade View Post
    Lay several 9MM rounds down on the table like they would be in a magazine and you'll see the rounds are tapered leaving a gap at the bullet end. The more rounds you stack the greater this gap gets. This is a problem with the single stack 9MM period.
    No. No it is not a problem with the single stack 9mm "period." Some notable pistols with trouble-free single stack 9mm mags are the S&W 3900 series, the Sig P225, the HK P7, and even the lower budget Ruger LC9 and Kel-Tec PF9 pistols. Haven't heard of any problems with the Taurus 709 mags, either.

    The problem is, Kahr 9mm mags suck. Period. And not just the extended ones. No pistol magazine should leave as much play in the top round as the junk Kahr mags do. I've never had rounds work their way out of any pistol mag when carried as spares, except for Kahr mags. Did I mention that they suck?

    Kahr should have Mec-Gar, who actually know what they are doing, make mags for their pistols.
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  12. #12
    New Member Array cswant88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    However, my PM9 will not reliably feed 147 gr Gold Dots - so it is "ammo sensitive."
    I have read elsewhere of people having problems with 147gr in Kahr's pocket 9s. I've never shot 147gr out of mine, so I couldn't say for sure, but it was sounding to me like they don't like it at all. I use 124gr +p. Its a nice compromise.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I just took a very close look at my PM9's mags. In addition to the well-discussed vertical play of the top round in the mag, I also noted quite a bit of sideways slop as well. I further noted that, as I inserted a full mag into the pistol, the top round could bump into the slide release lever's internal catch, if the round was slightly off-set to the left. This is likely the reason my PM9 failed with 147 gr bullets - the slightly larger bullets were probably sometimes hitting the slide release catch, causing them to nose-down and jam into the feed ramp.

    In comparison, the top round in my Glock mags and my LCP mags have zero vertical or horizontal slop. Zero.

    This inconsistent positioning of the top round in the mag, both vertically and horizontally, is likely the major cause of the Kahr nose-down jams. Indeed, the tech I spoke to at Kahr said that the feeding in Kahr pistols is "violent" and that the rounds "get bounced back and forth quite a bit." He said the rounds "do not just smoothly slide up the feed ramp." Now I understand exactly what he meant.

    reade - Good idea on the shim. However, I have had nose down jams both under and into the feed ramp. The shim might fix the former, but not the latter.

    The bottom line for me is that, when I go to the range, I expect my Glocks and LCPs to work. When my PM9 works I am relieved; when it fails I am not at all surprised. The more I study the design, the more I am surprised that it works as well as it does. The amount of slop that the Kahr mags allow for the top round is staggering.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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    Ex Member Array slave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    No. No it is not a problem with the single stack 9mm "period." Some notable pistols with trouble-free single stack 9mm mags are the S&W 3900 series, the Sig P225, the HK P7, and even the lower budget Ruger LC9 and Kel-Tec PF9 pistols. Haven't heard of any problems with the Taurus 709 mags, either.

    The problem is, Kahr 9mm mags suck. Period. And not just the extended ones. No pistol magazine should leave as much play in the top round as the junk Kahr mags do. I've never had rounds work their way out of any pistol mag when carried as spares, except for Kahr mags. Did I mention that they suck?

    Kahr should have Mec-Gar, who actually know what they are doing, make mags for their pistols.


    Yes, wife had the PM9, she now owns a LC9. Couldn't get ANY 7 round mag to run in it. The 6 rounders ran like a dream, the pistol shoots like butter covered glass, soaked in synthetic motor oil, with a 6 rounder.

    The 7 rounders had issues every other round, with EVERY 7 round mag we tried. Have never had an issue with any other single stack 9 we tried, just the PM9 and only with the 7 rounders.

    We even had three range safety officers, plus 3 freinds shoot it. Same exact results.

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    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    No. No it is not a problem with the single stack 9mm "period." Some notable pistols with trouble-free single stack 9mm mags are the S&W 3900 series, the Sig P225, the HK P7, and even the lower budget Ruger LC9 and Kel-Tec PF9 pistols. Haven't heard of any problems with the Taurus 709 mags, either.

    The problem is, Kahr 9mm mags suck. Period. And not just the extended ones. No pistol magazine should leave as much play in the top round as the junk Kahr mags do. I've never had rounds work their way out of any pistol mag when carried as spares, except for Kahr mags. Did I mention that they suck?

    Kahr should have Mec-Gar, who actually know what they are doing, make mags for their pistols.
    Keltec uses MecGar mags in their .380's and 9mm. No issues with them whatsoever......and they are $20 a piece, not $47 like the Kahr mags.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

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