Red Dot Rampage - Page 2

Red Dot Rampage

This is a discussion on Red Dot Rampage within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; "a number of custom gunsmiths are now even mounting these sights into a pistol’s slide (cutting a full-length dove tail) to offer a lower profile" ...

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Thread: Red Dot Rampage

  1. #16
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    "a number of custom gunsmiths are now even mounting these sights into a pistol’s slide (cutting a full-length dove tail) to offer a lower profile"

    and "milled down into the slide" would be the only way that I would opt for one & the idea HAS been tempting.
    It might just pay to "wait it out" a bit since I think many firearm manufacturers will eventually be offering pistol slides that are factory pre-milled for Red Dot Optics.

    and credit to Jim Grover AKA Kelly McCann for the RD mounted self-defensive carry pistol & that is where I first laid eyes on one.
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  2. #17
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    I'm with QK. I'm going to wait until I get my hands on one before I really decide. I'm not going to rush out and buy something EXPENSIVE just to say that I have one.

    Plus, unlike many on this forum, I'm not the best hand gunner around. I point shoot and I bullseye shoot quite well but I have a hard time with really fast aimed fire (as compared to some guys I know who really ARE good). This could help with that but then I'd be substituting a gimmick for actual skill. I'd prefer to learn the technique and upgrade my equipment later.
    Tangle likes this.
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  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    PICT0006.jpg
    its a red dot.....bigger though. and it certainly helps my accuracy
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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    While I don't have one I think for those of us who have the problem of seeing iron sights clearly, they would be a big help
    QKShooter likes this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Very subjective statement. My bets on the man behind the weapon, rather than the system.
    Agree.
    Don't need much to hit a man size target center mass at 21 feet. Little time out back now and then and a few rounds down range.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Yes, After this one die's I will replace it yearly.
    I think that's what I would do too. After all how much can one battery cost a year?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    ...The JPoint does need to be removed, but with co-witness and the milled slot, it easily goes back to zero after removal.
    Some are zeroed with reference to the dovetail cross slot in the receiver that the rear sight would normally go in. If the sight has to come off and it doesn't get realigned in the cross slot, the alignment would be off. The co-witness would probably get it pretty close, but the accuracy of the dot is then no more accurate than our ability to align the dot with the sights. To go further would require realignment by shooting.

    The milled slides have 'bosses' that perfectly realign the dot, that's one of the advantages of having the slide milled.

    All I was getting at is that some of the RDSs don't require removing the sight to replace the battery. Just pop the battery cover, replace the battery and it's good to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    ...Training issue? With the co-witness, you look for the irons like you have did 1000's of times before and the dot is just there. It's not much of a learning curve.
    That's the point several of us have been alluding to. You either 'pre-train' or 'post train' for the RDS. Pre-training is exactly what you described - "...you look for the irons like you have did 1000's of times before..." Post-training would be 1000s of reps with the RDS without the benefit of 1000s of reps before the RDS.

    Those that can't shoot well with iron sights and don't get to shoot a lot, may go buy one of these expensive things thinking it's an instant problem solver - it isn't. We will either train with iron sights until adding a dot is just another sighting tool, or we'll get a red dot and have to do a lot - a lot - of training with it to be any faster than we were with iron sights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    ...If you choose to go the dovetail mount route without the irons, then you may find yourself 'chasing the dot' for many repetitions until you get used to it.
    I think so too. And the less training you had prior to the RDS, the more reps it's gonna take.
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  7. #22
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    The milled slides have 'bosses' that perfectly realign the dot, that's one of the advantages of having the slide milled.
    That's not true. Some do; not all.

    Mine doesn't have 'bosses' milled, but it is shaped to the JPoint footprint.

    The co-witness would probably get it pretty close, but the accuracy of the dot is then no more accurate than our ability to align the dot with the sights. To go further would require realignment by shooting.
    As for alignment, the fixed sights stay fixed. It isn't difficult at all to center the dot over the front sight and tighten the screws.

    I can say that I have not had use the W/E screws to readjust my dot after having it off and on numerous times. I has went back to zero each time. The first couple of times, I did shoot to verify. Now, I don't. If you take a sight pic and the dot is on top of the front sight, I am good to go.

    And FYI, the notch in the back of a JPoint will not work as a rear sight in every instance.

  8. #23
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    Agree.
    Don't need much to hit a man size target center mass at 21 feet. Little time out back now and then and a few rounds down range.
    At close range, point shooting or metal on meat is still the order of the day.

    The RDS will help to round out your closer range and long distance precision shooting if needed. 100yd + shots on a man sized target with a G26/RDS combo is extremely easy.

  9. #24
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    Wait till the China copies come out.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Guys, I want to be real careful that I'm not giving an anti-RDS impression here. That's not my intent at all. I think what claude clay posted pretty well sums it up from a shooting perspective. It is not an instant fix or cure.

    I'm very tempted to get the Bushnell. My RDS is the first generation and has the top looking sensor. I'd like to try a later generation, especially front looking, not so much for speed, but for accuracy. A laser is a similar sighting system, and I can't say it's one bit faster than iron sights. But I am in the process of assessing that. Might as well include a late model RDS in the mix.

    I'll give Bushnell a call and see if their RDS can be adapted to a hangun, i.e. adapers. I have two G17 gen 4s; stock sights on one and a RDS on the other should make for some interesting shooting!
    Aside from batteries and the bright red, lasers and reflexive sights are are apples and oranges.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    At close range, point shooting or metal on meat is still the order of the day.

    The RDS will help to round out your closer range and long distance precision shooting if needed. 100yd + shots on a man sized target with a G26/RDS combo is extremely easy.
    Frighteningly easy.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by abillb View Post
    Wait till the China copies come out.
    China copies of the RMR have been out for about 2 years already.

    I hope no one chooses to rely on NCStar quality for life-saving equipment!

  13. #28
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    I never thought it was hard with irons. But, then again my vision is still good.

    But if you can't see the front sight, how can you see a distant target well enough to properly index it?
    Tangle likes this.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Aside from batteries and the bright red, lasers and reflexive sights are are apples and oranges.
    Mike, there are other similarities equally significant. They both magnify motion. They don't do it with optical magnification, but just allow us to see how much out gun is moving. I just recently got word from a shooter that when they tried a laser they didn't like it because they couldn't hold the gun still. Actually they were holding just as still as ever - they could just see the motion with the laser. The same is true for a RDS. I have both, I see the same thing in both.

    They both can flood out a target.

    They both require training; for one, we have to train to look for a red dot rather than sights. Whether that is perceived as difficult or not depends on a number things, but that's beside the point. That's another way a RDS and a laser are quite similar.

    They both purportedly help us shoot better via a red dot rather than iron sights. One can decide for oneself if that's a good thing or a bad thing. But that's yet another way a laser and RDS are similar.

    And there are differences as well. A laser doesn't have to be anywhere near eye level to confirm we're on target. Another difference is the RDS requires near sight focus to see the dot sharply. If one has poor near sight vision or eye anomalies like astigmatism, etc. the dot of a RDS might not be useable. OTOH, the same person would very likely be able to use a laser sight because the dot is actually on the target.

    Right now gun manufacturers seem to be going the laser route rather than the RDS route. A number of manufacturers now have various models with lasers as a package deal. I think part of the reason is simple economics. They don't have to do additional machining to the gun to mount a laser sight.

    Although I haven't confirmed this via testing, it seems to me for a fast SD situation, a laser is a much better option if one cannot see iron sights. It still takes training, but we can see the dot before we ever get the gun to eye level. There are some situations where we could shoot from concealment/cover without exposing our head with the gun. There could be SD situations due to injury, position, etc. we can't get the gun to eye level.

    And, although we can't count on it, a laser can have a deterrent effect you can't get with a RDS. But that's kind of built into the laser, if the deterrent effect works, it may save us from shooting. If it doesn't there's still that little red dot on the threat.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Mike, there are other similarities equally significant. They both magnify motion. They don't do it with optical magnification, but just allow us to see how much out gun is moving. I just recently got word from a shooter that when they tried a laser they didn't like it because they couldn't hold the gun still. Actually they were holding just as still as ever - they could just see the motion with the laser. The same is true for a RDS. I have both, I see the same thing in both.

    They both can flood out a target.

    They both require training; for one, we have to train to look for a red dot rather than sights. Whether that is perceived as difficult or not depends on a number things, but that's beside the point. That's another way a RDS and a laser are quite similar.

    They both purportedly help us shoot better via a red dot rather than iron sights. One can decide for oneself if that's a good thing or a bad thing. But that's yet another way a laser and RDS are similar.

    And there are differences as well. A laser doesn't have to be anywhere near eye level to confirm we're on target. Another difference is the RDS requires near sight focus to see the dot sharply. If one has poor near sight vision or eye anomalies like astigmatism, etc. the dot of a RDS might not be useable. OTOH, the same person would very likely be able to use a laser sight because the dot is actually on the target.

    Right now gun manufacturers seem to be going the laser route rather than the RDS route. A number of manufacturers now have various models with lasers as a package deal. I think part of the reason is simple economics. They don't have to do additional machining to the gun to mount a laser sight.

    Although I haven't confirmed this via testing, it seems to me for a fast SD situation, a laser is a much better option if one cannot see iron sights. It still takes training, but we can see the dot before we ever get the gun to eye level. There are some situations where we could shoot from concealment/cover without exposing our head with the gun. There could be SD situations due to injury, position, etc. we can't get the gun to eye level.

    And, although we can't count on it, a laser can have a deterrent effect you can't get with a RDS. But that's kind of built into the laser, if the deterrent effect works, it may save us from shooting. If it doesn't there's still that little red dot on the threat.
    Each has its respective strengths and considerations, which is why I went this route:
    PICT0008.jpg
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
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