Red Dot Rampage - Page 3

Red Dot Rampage

This is a discussion on Red Dot Rampage within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 Each has its respective strengths and considerations, which is why I went this route: Attachment 60516 I don't disagree with that ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Each has its respective strengths and considerations, which is why I went this route:
    Attachment 60516
    I don't disagree with that at all. I was merely referring to similarities as far as some of the aiming and dot characteristics.

    I'm a bit puzzled though why the lasers have caught on more than the RDS for handguns. It's interesting that for longguns, RDSs are unquestionably more popular than lasers; for handguns, lasers seem to be far more popular.
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  2. #32
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    I think you answered your own question, Tangle. Lasers cost less than a red dot sight, and are easier (and thus less costly) to mount. I (and I suspect most others) have several different handgun options, depending on attire and concealment needs. I can afford to equip all of them with lasers. I could not afford to equip them all with a red dot, even if it was possible to do so.

    A rifle is used mostly for shooting at longer range. Red lasers don't work too well at long range, especially in bright light. Also, you have to concern yourself with the laser's zero. A red dot, OTOH, is useful for that application. Green lasers are better at long range, but have their own issues with battery life and temperature sensitivity.

    Handguns are primarily used at close range, so the limitations of the red laser are not as pronounced.

    Another factor is that lasers, IIRC, came out long before red dot sights. So it may be that folks are just more used to them. You also have many references to laser sights in movies and on TV, so even non-gun folks know what they are. That works to your advantage in a defensive situation, as every BG out there knows what a red laser dot on their chest means.

    The only other consideration I will add is that red dots mounted on a handgun can obscure the iron sights, if the glass gets fogged, dirty or damaged. With a laser malfunction, you always have unobstructed access to the iron sights. How much of a concern that is, I will leave up to you, but it may also help explain why red dots are not more popular on handguns.

    Red dots and lasers are really more complimentary that competition for each other. Each does things well that the other does not. I like Mike 1956's setup, and if I could carry such a setup concealed all the time, might go that route. But since I cannot, it is a moot point for me. Lasers it is.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post

    But if you can't see the front sight, how can you see a distant target well enough to properly index it?
    I've heard from more than one, "experienced" open shooter (USPSA), that had become frustrated with their ability to see iron sights but their focus at distance was fine. They switched to the dot and started having fun again.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I'm a bit puzzled though why the lasers have caught on more than the RDS for handguns.
    I'd hazard the guess that an RDS rugged and compact enough for daily carry coupled with a milled slide is a relatively new development.

    Lasers have been around and part of real life and cinema for 2 decades at least (not even counting the huge versions of the 80's).

    Give the RDS a bit of time and I think it will surpass the laser in popularity for CCW, .Mil, and LE.

    (write this quote down for posterity )

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    I'd hazard the guess that an RDS rugged and compact enough for daily carry coupled with a milled slide is a relatively new development.

    Lasers have been around and part of real life and cinema for 2 decades at least (not even counting the huge versions of the 80's).
    I'm not sure which has been around longer, I have an Optima RDS (preceded the Doctor) that I'm pretty sure is 12 years or more older. I'm not aware of any lasers used on handguns 2 decades ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    ...Give the RDS a bit of time and I think it will surpass the laser in popularity for CCW, .Mil, and LE.
    Well, we see RDS on lots of civilian, military, and LE weapons - long guns that is. RDSs small enough for handguns have been around a loooong time, like I said, 12 years I know. They came and went and in more recent years seem to have been rediscovered.

    We have to be careful comparing LE and military trends/needs to civilians. LE and the military carry full size handguns and don't conceal them. LE and the military are big on WMLs too, and that hasn't caught on in the civilian world. Well, it's there, but I think if we peeked at most CCW guns they won't have WMLs on them and there are some plenty small for concealment.

    I'm not aware of any RDSs on military or LE handguns, especially not in the general population. Same is true for laser sights on military and LE handguns.

    I now have a Burris RDS and have to order a $50 mount for every different brand of gun I want to put it on. That's if I'm willing to just mount it without co-witness. Like we've said, it's like $200 - $250 to get the slide milled for one. Then it's one gun dedicated. I think that's part of the problem with the RDS concept - it's to gun specific. Lets say a guy has a RDS on a Glock and falls in love with a compact 1911. In order to transfer the sight, he has to have his slide machined. Not only is that expensive, but I'm not sure how many people want to have their Colt 1911 slide milled such that it cannot be restored to it's original condition. I'm not sure how many guys would want to do that to a Glock. We can purchase an another slide and have it milled, but now we're talking even more expense.

    OTOH, a guy can get a guide rod type or grip type laser, and while they aren't cheap and won't transfer from one brand to another, the gun can be restored to it's original condition. Also if we have a RDS on a G19 and have become dependent on it, and we decide to carry our G26 or G22, won't we need a RDS on it/them too? That's another RDS and/or slide machining. I just don't think the average CCW guy is gonna have one slide milled, much less two or more, but that's just a personal opinion, nothing more.

    Then after he looks at all that expense, he sees a laser that will do more for less on a SD gun.

    OTOH, look at how many CCW guys won't use a laser either, claiming it's a bell and whistle, gimmick, 'toy', etc. Why would they not feel the same about RDSs on handguns? Of course when those folks get older and they can't focus on their sights so well any more....

    As for CCW, the trend seems to be toward smaller, lighter, easier to carry which is significantly more compatible with lasers. I'm not so sure a RDS stuck on top of the flood of new mini-guns is all that appealing. Plus, one wonders if that many CCWers can afford the gun, ammo, training, and a RDS. I'm not even sure they're going to feel like they need them. Plus, for a SD handgun one is generally not concerned about long shots or pin-point accuracy.

    I don't think RDSs are going to be a large part of CCW or even police for that matter - that's a lot of added expense to mill slides and buy RDSs too. I don't think as a whole, LE can afford the expense, many can hardly afford ammo to practice with.

    Where I see the market, albeit a small one, is for guys that like to shoot a lot and are starting to have eye trouble. Even among that group, they can revert to a laser and relax the eyes altogether.

    You did good to get your RDS, it will serve you well, I'm sure, and you will be able to use it to great advantage, but I don't think it's a coming trend in the general CCWer population.
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  6. #36
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    I don't believe I would like them. Not to mention cost of buying one, having it mounted, and buying new holsters to properly fit a handgun with that thing mounted on the top. Lastly for some reason it just seems...I don't know, can't put my finger on it, but anyways I prefer good old irons, one less thing to worry about.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    and "milled down into the slide" would be the only way that I would opt for one & the idea HAS been tempting.
    It might just pay to "wait it out" a bit since I think many firearm manufacturers will eventually be offering pistol slides that are factory pre-milled for Red Dot Optics..
    The FN FNX45 Tactical comes pre milled and equipped with supressor sights for out of the box co-witness. 15 rounds of 45, too, IIRC.

    -john

  8. #38
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    From Crimson Trace's site:
    In the spring of 1994, Crimson Trace developed and sold its first laser sight - an internal system for Glock pistols - and the handgun market hasn’t been the same since. Just two years later, the newly patented, user-installed Lasergrips® were unveiled at the 1996 SHOT Show and the laser sighting revolution was on.
    Like I said - around 2 decades.

  9. #39
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    Like I said, I don't know how long RDS for handguns have been around, but since CT unveiled the laser sight in the 1996 shot show, that's when the public would have really become award of them - that's 16 years ago, not two decades. That's only four years longer than my estimate of the availability of the Optima RDS for handguns. And I readily admit, I could be off on the timing of the RDS, but seems like I bought my Optima about 12 years ago.
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  10. #40
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    RDS pistol sights have been around with target shooters for quite a while. I remember their use from the late 80's. It seems RDS sight s of long guns became popular after the use by the military. Will hav to see how this treads with pistol sights, however pistols are not nearly in use with mil as other users.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    ...that's 16 years ago, not two decades. That's only four years longer than my estimate
    If you're going to get into minutiae, that's just 4 years shy of my 2 decades

    FYI, 2 decades = 20 years. I'm not counting the monstrosities the size of a 2D cell Maglite that were available in the 80's. That would be about 10 more years.

    But since you are the moderator, you win.

    I'll let you continue to bask in your preconceived ideas about milled RDS slides without even trying one.

  12. #42
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    I have a rmr milled on my G17 and I love it. Initially, it was slower to acquire the red dot, but after extensive practicing, finding the dot is no longer an issue.

    Any regrets in using this system? None...
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  13. #43
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    I would like to try one before I spent the kind of money it takes to do it right.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    However my G26, JPoint, milled slide, suppressor sights and threaded barrel all come in well under what many are willing to pay for a 1911.

    And it is a much better fighting weapon.
    Scott, we've been contemplating the red dot on our Glocks for some time now with my wife. I think the Jpoint is way to go. A perfect excuse to purchase a few new guns.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNgunner View Post
    Scott, we've been contemplating the red dot on our Glocks for some time now with my wife. I think the Jpoint is way to go. A perfect excuse to purchase a few new guns.
    Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go with the JPoint.

    I'd opt for the more rugged Trijicon RMR.

    I'd also consider purchasing the pre-milled slides. If it doesn't work out, they will be easier to sell and you can just slip the factory slides back on.

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