Red Dot Rampage

[MNgunner]

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go with the JPoint.

I'd opt for the more rugged Trijicon RMR.

I'd also consider purchasing the pre-milled slides. If it doesn't work out, they will be easier to sell and you can just slip the factory slides back on.

Okay, thanks for the info.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Mike1956]

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go with the JPoint.

I'd opt for the more rugged Trijicon RMR.

I'd also consider purchasing the pre-milled slides. If it doesn't work out, they will be easier to sell and you can just slip the factory slides back on.

I'm sending my second slide for a DeltaPoint set-up.

[ScottM]

Something else:

Ambient light sensing. If you have certain models that sense light overhead, instead of from the front of the sight, strange things can happen. Lets say you are in a dark building and the threat is outside in the bright sunlight. In this situation, the unit senses the dark you're in and dims the dot. You can't see it on the brightly illuminated threat.

Let's take just the opposite. You're in the bright light, lets say under a bright street light, and your threat is in a much darker setting. The sensor sees you are in bright light, after all, it's looking straight up at a light, hence it brightens the dot and literally floods out the threat.

Those that sell these things will total deny and ignore this, but it happens. I had this happen on a top sensing RDS and I was just under a shooting shed with my target in bright sunlight. I could barely see the dot.

I don't sell these, but I'm going out on a limb and say you are the only one I've ever heard of having this happen.

I've used my JPoint under very similar lighting conditions and was still able to see the target and the dot. My (several) friends who own RMR's have also never experienced it when asked.

The Dual Illumination RMR does suffer from this problem somewhat, but I don't know of it happening with the LED models.

[Tangle]

Scott,
I wasn't referring to you at all, when I said those that sell these things, but I can see how it would be easy to think it was meant for you - it wasn't at all.

If you're going to get into minutiae, that's just 4 years shy of my 2 decades

16 years is not 2 decades. You have to add 25% to 16 to get to two decades. Why not just tell it like it is - 16 years?

...I'm not counting the monstrosities the size of a 2D cell Maglite that were available in the 80's. That would be about 10 more years.

Come on Scott; I'm not counting monstrosities either, I stated clearly I was referring to the Optima 2000, I think 2000 was picked as the model number because it was introduced in 2000. Actually, I'm pretty sure it was introduced in 1998 or 1999 but since the millennium was so close...

The Optima is the same size as a Doctor, which is the same size as your JPoint - there's no maglight size involved.

...I'll let you continue to bask in your preconceived ideas about milled RDS slides without even trying one.

Why do you say I haven't tried one? I haven't tried one machined into the slide, and probably won't if that's what it takes to use one, but I have tried a RDS on many occasions and so far have always returned to iron sights.

I also have a Burris FastFire II that I'm eager to try - just waiting on the adapter to arrive.

Scott, what's the problem here? Are RDSs so sacred that all we can post is praise about them? Am I not allowed to post some things I've experienced with these sights?

I'm not saying RDSs are trash, not in the least way, but I will say they are not the ultimate solution some make them out to be.

But I think for most folks for SD work, a laser is a better choice. At the same time, I respect you and your opinion that a RDS is a better choice for most folks than a laser sight.

But, iron sights aside for the moment, a laser is almost ideal for SD type engagements, the sight doesn't require the gun to be at eye level, you don't have to sight through a 1" square or so window.

From a logistics perspective, a laser can be less intrusive on the gun (grip and guide rod lasers), do not require machining or other non-recoverable mods. Rail mount lasers can be transferred from one gun make to another.

[Tangle]

I have a rmr milled on my G17 and I love it. Initially, it was slower to acquire the red dot, but after extensive practicing, finding the dot is no longer an issue.

Thanks Super J, that's exactly the point I've been trying to make. It would be easy to get the impression that these things are just bolt on and you're good to go. Your experience illustrates that just isn't the case. I wouldn't have gone so far to say extensive practice, but it does take practice, often more than many will be able to do.

The only thing I think is a downside to RDSs on handguns is they are expensive, to get co-witnessing is even more expensive, and they are not instant solutions to shooting problems.

Like you've found, if you put in the time, they'll work for you.

I'd go so far as to say most would be better off with a RDS than irons, but I'd also say most would be better served with a laser.

Scott is happy with his and that's what counts. I'm eager to try my new Burris FastFire. But if it doesn't come up to what I can do with iron sights pretty quickly, I'm not going to spend 6 weeks or more trying to come up to iron sight speeds. I will keep us posted.

I think the optimistic outcome would be they are everything irons are and more - I just haven't seen that to be true so far. But with a new generation RDS, maybe it will be different.

[glockman10mm]

Just give ma a good ol gold bead front sight on a k frame. Worked great for Ed Mcgivern into his late years.

[ScottM]

Thanks Super J, that's exactly the point I've been trying to make. It would be easy to get the impression that these things are just bolt on and you're good to go. Your experience illustrates that just isn't the case. I wouldn't have gone so far to say extensive practice, but it does take practice, often more than many will be able to do.

I still disagree.

I've read of more who didn't have a cross-over problem than did.

Like I said, find the sights like you have did 1000's of times before and the dot is there. Most report it taking less than 100 presentations from the holster to become accustomed to the dot.

[ScottM]

I haven't tried one machined into the slide, and probably won't if that's what it takes to use one,

Are RDSs so sacred that all we can post is praise about them? Am I not allowed to post some things I've experienced with these sights!

This thread was about Dave James' (favorable) experience carrying a properly milled and mounted RDS.

You admittedly haven't tried a properly milled set-up. Yet, you still try to infer that the experiences you have had with the dovetail mounted units will also show up in the milled slide units. It just isn't so.

I think the optimistic outcome would be they are everything irons are and more

Oh, it is!

I just haven't seen that to be true so far.

No. You haven't seen it to be true with a dovetail-mounted RDS. And you will not see it as true until you try a milled unit with co-witness irons.

To borrow an oft-used phrase: You don't know what you don't know about RDS-mounted slides.

[AutoFan]

I've messed about with a Novak rear slide cut mounted micro-RDS (a Burris FastFire to be precise). It does take time to locate that floating dot until you get used to it, just like aligning the front and rear sights were when you first started shooting. Once you get accustomed to it, it does make it easier to shoot accurately, especially if you have problems focusing close. I would much prefer a co-witnessed RDS with the iron sights. Don't really know why the RDS window is so large and the dot so high, they don't need to be more than a few millimeters above the iron sights.

As an aside, I have had more than a few reliability issues with the Burris FastFire. Bad batteries, soft mounting screws that strip out very easily, and flat out failures. I think I am on my 3rd one, and a fellow shooter had his fail on a .22lr, so I wouldn't use that make/model for any serious work.

[Tangle]

Scott,
Why are you doing this? Why is it so important to you to deny there could be any possible downsides to a RDS or that there could be anything (laser) that could be better for SD?

The issues have nothing to do with how the RDS is mounted on the slide except that a milled slide almost doubles the cost. That isn't an inference - actually the correct word is implication or imply.

You still have to look through a 1 inch square window to see the dot and sights - that isn't an implication.

You still have to have the gun/sight at eye level to see the dot - that isn't an implication.

You can't transfer the RDS to another gun without having that slide milled also - that isn't an implication.

I and others have stated that due to eye problems we can't use red dots well. Well, I think I can now, but like some mentioned, astigmatism and other eye maladies aren't all that compatible with an up close red dot. That's not an implication.

And those that have the eye issues with up close dots, can use a laser. That's not an implication either.

If you have a milled slide mount on one gun, doesn't logic suggest you need it on at least some of your other carry guns as well for the very same reasons?

I have seen the dot dim and brighten incorrectly on light adjusting RDS on more than one occasion just casually using them. The same thing would have happened with a milled slide mount. Again, it happens because of the sensor improperly sensing light levels. This from a reviewer from OpticsPlanet - this is one I hadn't considered:

"In darkness it goes so dim it is completely invisible if using a tactical flashlight."

But again Scott, I'm not condemning RDSs - not in any way. It is not my intent to even criticize RDSs or the use of them - not at all. But I do think it is responsible to at least present a few things worth considering.

I don't see why you can't allow someone to express a few things to consider other than perfection?

[glockman10mm]

Many people try to substitute technology for skill. Good luck.

I still think if your eyesight is so bad you can't see the front sight, then you can't see the target.

[ScottM]

But I do think it is responsible to at least present a few things worth considering.

Trying to 'critique' a system you admittedly haven't and won't, try is laughable. No, it's worse than that.

I hope any of the other 'tests' you've posted on this sight meet more stringent criteria.

[ScottM]

Many people try to substitute technology for skill.

Nothing wrong with having both skill and the tech to use said skill level.

[Tangle]

Trying to 'critique' a system you admittedly haven't and won't, try is laughable. No, it's worse than that.

I hope any of the other 'tests' you've posted on this sight meet more stringent criteria.

Scott do you notice your remarks are now directed toward me personally instead of the issues? I think if you could debate the issues, you would. Maybe you now realize your position that the RDS is infallible and is the best sight for everyone and has no downsides is untenable? When a person reaches that point, they typically attack the person as a work-around.

Scott, I have used a RDS. The issues I have reported, as have others in product reviews, are not mount dependent. You're trying to pin all your hopes on a milled slide making all this stuff I've mentioned just magically go away - it won't - they are RDS issues, not how they're mounted - the issues remain. Well, one is a mount issue - it's expensive!

Again, as others have posted, certain eye conditions cause problems with electronic dots - that's completely independent of how they're mounted.

You still have to bring the gun up to eye level.

You still have to sight through a small window.

I and others have reported undesirable dot intensities under certain lighting conditions, e.g. in a light adjusting RDS, the dot dims too much in the presence of a tactical white light. That's corroborates some intensity issues I've seen.

None of those are mount dependent.

Scott, this is a good thread about a good topic - it isn't about who's right and who's wrong. It isn't that at all. I'm sure not out to prove anything here, but these things are expensive, and if they only work successfully with a milled slide, don't you think it's important to bring that out?

I really don't see being forced to have a slide milled as an asset.

That implies a RDS can NOT be used successfully on a handgun if you can't have the slide milled. That must not be true since Kelly McCann who says using the Doctor RDS on his Glock 19 is like cheating and his Glock 19 does not have a milled slide, but rather the Doctor is mounted in the dovetail slot. So he cannot have co-witnessing sights and he obviously doesn't see that as a problem.

[ScottM]

That must not be true since Kelly McCann who says using the Doctor RDS on his Glock 19 is like cheating and his Glock 19 does not have a milled slide, but rather the Doctor is mounted in the dovetail slot. So he cannot have co-witnessing sights and he obviously doesn't see that as a problem.

Actually, he does have a milled slide weapon now. Check out his testimonial on Bowie Tactical.

In particular on mine, Dave
cut the Reflex into the slide lowering it enough to make the profile more streamlined and snag free. He “melted” the gun,
radiusing any objectionable edges improving it even further for concealed carry. More importantly with the sight milled
into the slide it sits closer to the axis of the bore. Undercutting the trigger guard enabled me to achieve a higher grip on
the pistol. These two mods combined make a tangible, functional improvement in how quickly you can acquire the reticle
and significantly improves the overall G19/Reflex concept.

I myself carried a dovetailed JPoint for over a year before deciding to go with a milled slide.

I can tell you it is night and day difference in performance.