How many times were 5 shots not enough?

This is a discussion on How many times were 5 shots not enough? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Tayopo Scott, only the hits actually count. I have yet to be in a gunfight that was terminated by noise olone. And ...

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Thread: How many times were 5 shots not enough?

  1. #151
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayopo View Post
    Scott, only the hits actually count. I have yet to be in a gunfight that was terminated by noise olone.
    And he did hit, with all six rounds he had in the gun.

    But I challenge anyone, under the actual conditions he was in, to put them all COM

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  3. #152
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    And he did hit, with all six rounds he had in the gun.

    But I challenge anyone, under the actual conditions he was in, to put them all COM
    ScottM - Agreed that getting "good" hits during a swirling dogfight is no easy task.

    That said - I'm a bit curious about your friend's incident. Why did he have to go hands-on after making his hits? Was he not able to run away? Was he already grappling with the attacker? Or was he an off-duty LEO and was he trying to apprehend the attacker?

    I ask because, as civilians, our only obligation is to survive. If we put rounds into an attacker and he lives, fine. As long as we survive, we count that as a win. We have no obligation to apprehend.

    Unfortunately, handguns (of whatever caliber) will not instantly stop a determined attacker unless the CNS is disrupted - which is hard to do in a swirling dogfight, as the target areas (brain, spine) are so small. If tasers weren't so limited in range and had the ability to fire more than one shot, I'd say they were probably "better" at stopping an attack than a handgun is.

    Sorry to drift off topic, but always interested to learn from actual situations.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  4. #153
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    And he did hit, with all six rounds he had in the gun.

    But I challenge anyone, under the actual conditions he was in, to put them all COM
    What were the conditions? What was the other guy armed with? Sounds like the distance had to be very close.
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  5. #154
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Not enough for what? To kill the bear? It seems he was successful in saving his dog's life and running the bear off. He was also successful in getting himself a charge for carrying where it was not legal to do so, another charge(s) for discharging the weapon, and perhaps another one for not having the dog on a leash. Looks like 8 shots were plenty.
    I was going to start a thread on that one! Headlines tick me off. The bear did not attack the dog. The dog went after the bear. They think the bear was not hit

  7. #156
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    If I may add to 10thmtn's post -

    "I ask because, as civilians, our only obligation is to survive. If we put rounds into an attacker and he lives, fine. As long as we survive, we count that as a win. We have no obligation to apprehend"

    We also have to report to the proper authorities whether the animal was 4 or 2 legged. That might save you from a world of hurt if you don't & get caught. Conversely it might also PUT you in a world of hurt if you do. I'd always report unless I was SURE there was no way to trace it back to me.
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  8. #157
    Senior Member Array Lish's Avatar
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    I know you only asked for first hand, so I'll apologize in advance for sharing my fil's story, not my own.

    About a week after Hurricane Andrew, my inlaws were outside their home with an insurance adjuster. A van pulled up and several looters hopped out, one with a shotgun. He fired the shotgun over my fil's head yelling nobody move. My fil drew and fired back, hitting him in the side of the head. The others jumped back in the van and took off. Luckily, he only needed one well placed shot.
    BugDude and tricolordad like this.

  9. #158
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Good post. Just curious. Did the guy die? Did your FIL face investigation and how did it turn out?
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  10. #159
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I've read that before. Many lessons to learn, but I'm not sure how applicable that situation is to the average CCW civilian on the street. Certainly, if you have reason to believe you will be targeted in your place of work by multiple armed and determined attackers - then you should probably have a few long guns at the ready.

    Note that all the attackers needed several hits to put them down - regarless of whether he used a .38 Spl, 9mm, .357 Mag or .45 to defend himself.

    If anything, the article makes a good argument for having multiple handguns of low to medium capacity at the ready.

    But the real lesson is - handguns suck. While I admire the guy, I cannot help but wonder why he insisted on multiple handguns, instead of a few handguns backed up by some long guns.

    On a different note - I wonder how his hearing is doing after all the indoor shooting, presumably without hearing protection...?
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  11. #160
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    It just made his ears " tougher ". :)
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  12. #161
    Senior Member Array Lish's Avatar
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    Yes, he did die - not immediately though. He was 16 and while my fil has no regrets for his actions it has weighed on him. His accomplices were later caught and charged with his death as well as the charges faced for storming my inlaws. Even in the initial news reports the police said it was a clear case of self defense and they tried to protect my fil by refusing to release his name, of course the local paper pulled up property records and published it anyway (but not the looters since they were minors - gotta love it) My fil did lose his gun, it was taken as part of the investigation and when he tried to get it back was told because there was a body on it it had to be destroyed. No doubt in my mind that was BS even in 1992 and he could have fought for it but he didn't. He's never said, but I've gotten the feeling he didn't want it back. He replaced it but has never shot it, officially saying he doesn't need to - he knows how to use it, but again I feel differently as to why he's never tried it out. (he doesn't carry) My husband and I have just about convinced him to go to the range with us.

  13. #162
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    The only time I have ever felt the need to even possibly think about going for my weapon, all I did was expose it... holstered on my hip... Zero Shots fired...

    Exposing my holstered firearm... Ended a long string of scary things.... stalkings, an attempt to bomb my vehicle in front of my house, threats of having pros from out of state come "visit" me... It all stopped that day.

    I was not dealing with criminals, per se ... but the threats were real... similar events had occurred to others doing the same thing I was doing... and some people got hurt...
    It could be worse.
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  14. #163
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    If they want you, it doesnt matter what you are carrying. However, I will not handicap myself with only 5 in the gun and 5 in a loader. I will stick with the auto. Why prepare for the minimum, when you can prepare for the Max....JMO...

  15. #164
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    The only time I have ever felt the need to even possibly think about going for my weapon, all I did was expose it... holstered on my hip... Zero Shots fired...

    Exposing my holstered firearm... Ended a long string of scary things.... stalkings, an attempt to bomb my vehicle in front of my house, threats of having pros from out of state come "visit" me... It all stopped that day.

    I was not dealing with criminals, per se ... but the threats were real... similar events had occurred to others doing the same thing I was doing... and some people got hurt...
    I had a similar situation in 2009 after I fired an employee (who based on his own actions was being investigated by the police, the state licensing board, and faced losing not only his job but professional license and family in addition to civil suits and jail time). He started showing up in places me and my family were at, by himself, and he lived 3 towns away. He also drove by my house several times and I lived on a culdesac road.

    One evening he showed up in a local Mexican restaurant and sat there and stared at me. This was when you were required to OC in a place that served alcohol in VA (the old Virginia Tuck rule). I had my shirt tucked behind my OWB holstered Ruger Police Service Six but in a booth where he couldn't see it. I told my daughter to knock something off the table and I got up to retrieve it making sure it was plainly visible to him. When I sat back down, his eyes were bulging and he got up and walked out...didn't even pay his bill. I never saw him again.
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  16. #165
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    What were the conditions? What was the other guy armed with? Sounds like the distance had to be very close.
    I have already given the details (as I know them) in two earlier posts.

    Why did he have to go hands-on after making his hits?
    Because his attacker was still in the fight even after 6 hits with a .380.

    And note, I'm not bashing the .380 as a failure. I'm strongly recommending that one carry as many rounds as possible and use them generously if you are in a fight. Reality is that stops with a handgun may or may not happen regardless of the caliber.

    It could (and has) happened just as easily with a 9mm, .40 or .45ACP.

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