How many times were 5 shots not enough?

This is a discussion on How many times were 5 shots not enough? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ya'all are going to do whatever it is you are going to do, based upon what you think and think you may run into.... until ...

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Thread: How many times were 5 shots not enough?

  1. #166
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Ya'all are going to do whatever it is you are going to do, based upon what you think and think you may run into....

    until something happens......

    then assuming you are still alive, you'll greatly modify your planning.

    Anyone I've seen in an actual shooting exchange..... afterwards were carrying double whatever they were prior to it.... and weren't sure that was enough.

    I always remember the guy standing 15 ft from 2 officers, when he pulled his gun. They shot 68 shots, and he shot 40+ shots..... in the course of a very small amount of time ... all within 10-20 ft of each other.... he surrendered once he was hit in the leg and ran out of ammunition. No officers were hit. No one was ever behind any cover of any kind.

    The people who lived in the house about 30 - 40 ft behind the BG sure had a lot to say though.... as most of the officer's stray bullets were bombarding their house and kitchen, where they were.
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  3. #167
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    ...Anyone I've seen in an actual shooting exchange..... afterwards were carrying double whatever they were prior to it.... and weren't sure that was enough...
    I better start looking for a 10 shot snubbie revolver. I do have an old H&R 922 snub. It's 9 shots.
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  4. #168
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    So far, I have needed zero shots in the one and, hopefully, only self defense "shooting" situation I have been involved in. The sight of my Glock 23 coming up on target turned the would be carjacking gang member into a 5 sizes too big pants wearing track star. One that was eventually caught and arrested I might ad.

    But, while I know the average number of shots fired in a civilian SD shooting are 2 to 3, I still prefer to have as many as I can comfortably carry. With a spare magazine. Plus, the G23 or the CW9 both hold more ammo, are flatter and easier to conceal that a 5 shot snubbie. Add the benefits of holding more rounds, having a longer sight radius, more comfortable to carry and vastly quicker and easier to reload, that is a winning combo I can't and won't pass up to carry a 5 shot revolver for.
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  5. #169
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    by BugDude...I better start looking for a 10 shot snubbie revolver. I do have an old H&R 922 snub. It's 9 shots.

    Well you can get a SP 101 .327 mag. Might be a bit hot though compared to .38. It's not 10 shots but it's a start.
    Last edited by mprp; July 18th, 2012 at 01:58 AM. Reason: Added quote
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  6. #170
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I've got an SP101 in .357. It's a great shooter. I'm not concerned with carrying a 5 shot revolver. I own a wide variety of handguns, including hi cap autos for cc. I carry different ones based on where I'm going and what I'm wearing.
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  7. #171
    Senior Member Array cz75luver's Avatar
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    Here's a story where a person expended 5 shots. The CCW holder was carrying a .380 which I think usually carry 6 shots, but if the robbers were ready/willing to cause harm rather than just run away, he most likely would have emptied his gun and needed a reload.

    Charges unlikely against man who shot robbers | Ocala.com

    Beach was sitting in with her back to the door Friday night and didn’t realize what was happening until she heard shots.

    “I heard pop, pop; then pop, pop, pop, all at once,” she said. “In the confusion I never really got to see his (Williams) face.”

    Surveillance video of the incident was released on Monday by the Sheriff’s Office. It shows two masked men entering the Palms Internet Cafe, 8444 SW State Road 200, just before 10 p.m. Friday. One of the men had a gun.

    Williams was seated toward the back of the cafe dressed in a white shirt, shorts and baseball cap.

    One of the masked men, identified as Duwayne Henderson, 19, comes in pointing a handgun at customers. The second man, Davis Dawkins, 19, is seen swinging a bat at something off screen, which was later identified as a $1,200 computer screen.

    As Henderson turns his back, Williams pulls out a .380-caliber semi-automatic handgun, stands from his chair, takes two steps, nearly drops to one knee, and fires two shots at Henderson, who bolts for the front door.
    It's not as if this happened outside a gas station, convenience store, or anything of the kind; an internet cafe. Anywhere, anytime . . .

  8. #172
    Senior Member Array highvoltage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cz75luver View Post
    Here's a story where a person expended 5 shots. .......
    Exact count undetermined:

    As Henderson turns his back, Williams pulls out a .380-caliber semi-automatic handgun, stands from his chair, takes two steps, nearly drops to one knee, and fires two shots at Henderson, who bolts for the front door.

    Williams takes several more steps toward the door and continues firing as Henderson and Dawkins fall over one another trying to exit the building. The two eventually run off screen.

  9. #173
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  10. #174
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  11. #175
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  12. #176
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    I keep hearing people preparing for the "average" gun fight in which 5 shots is enough. Let's see, to get an average you add the number of shots together and divide by the number of shootings. Hmmmm, Assuming this is a bell curve with 5 shots being at the apex of the curve, there are lots of shootings that take 1 or 2 shots and lots that take 10 or 15 shots. You are really gambling that if you are in a shooting, you will be in one that only takes 1 shot. 5 shots is the median round count. So if 48% of shootings require 10 shots and 48% require 3 shots you are hoping you will be in the first group.

    Statistics are funny things and are generally BS. I was in the intelligence business for several years, I do know how they work and that they are easily manipulated and worthless for any real comparison besides establishing a Trend or Pattern. This is especially true if there are not enough data points to establish a trend or pattern. In this thread I have seen very little data just people voicing opinion for the most part.

    So, those basing their beliefs on an opinion, how many shootings have you been involved with? Witness to? Or interviewed participants in the aftermath?

    I will also say this; You cannot discount officer involved shootings. If you throw out everything leading up to the shooting, why they were there, and just focus on the fight itself you will understand my point. The same people that are going to rob you, or the gangbangers are the same people that when cornered are going to shoot it out with the police, they are still armed the same way. Do you honestly believe that thugs get prepared everyday to shoot it out with the police? That only happens in movies.
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  13. #177
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    Well, here is a one shot situation that happened in Fl. The single shot from the .380 is on the 2nd. page of the story. I'll stick with my 9mm anyway.

    Shooting of Intruder In Winter Haven Home Invasion ‘Justified' | TheLedger.com

  14. #178
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    I keep hearing people preparing for the "average" gun fight in which 5 shots is enough. Let's see, to get an average you add the number of shots together and divide by the number of shootings. Hmmmm, Assuming this is a bell curve with 5 shots being at the apex of the curve, there are lots of shootings that take 1 or 2 shots and lots that take 10 or 15 shots. You are really gambling that if you are in a shooting, you will be in one that only takes 1 shot. 5 shots is the median round count. So if 48% of shootings require 10 shots and 48% require 3 shots you are hoping you will be in the first group.

    Statistics are funny things and are generally BS. I was in the intelligence business for several years, I do know how they work and that they are easily manipulated and worthless for any real comparison besides establishing a Trend or Pattern. This is especially true if there are not enough data points to establish a trend or pattern. In this thread I have seen very little data just people voicing opinion for the most part.

    So, those basing their beliefs on an opinion, how many shootings have you been involved with? Witness to? Or interviewed participants in the aftermath?

    I will also say this; You cannot discount officer involved shootings. If you throw out everything leading up to the shooting, why they were there, and just focus on the fight itself you will understand my point. The same people that are going to rob you, or the gangbangers are the same people that when cornered are going to shoot it out with the police, they are still armed the same way. Do you honestly believe that thugs get prepared everyday to shoot it out with the police? That only happens in movies.
    I'm very familiar with the fallacy of averages. If you have one hand on a hot stove, and the other frozen in a block of ice, on average you are comfortable. In reality, not so much.

    To answer your question, as I have already posted earlier in the thread, I have been involved personally in ONE home invasion shooting in which I fired 5 shots. 2 got the guys running and 3 more to keep them running without looking back. The average shots fired is actually 2. That only includes SD situations in which shots were fired and is not watered down in ones in which no shots were fired. As you can see from reading the posts, we have no personal examples of more than 5. I have lots of firearms, and carry a wide variety. Many are higher capacity autos and depending on circumstances I carry them...but I'm not concerned (based on circumstances) with carrying a 5 shot snub either. Living at the beach, I can't seem to find a way to carry a Ruger P95 in my swim trunks all day...but my 442 gets it done.
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  15. #179
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Does it really matter? I mean really, being able to have the gun on your person at the time of the incident is the most important thing, no matter what statistics say or the number of rounds on hand before a reload is neccessary. And thats where some miss the point, I believe.

    Additionally, a j frame carried in your pocket, allows you to walk around with a complete firing grip on the piece, and nobody even notices. People walk with their hands in the pocket all the time. And, regardless of if you are carrying the " master blaster" with unlimited capacity IWB, there is no way you can beat the speed of getting that first, and most critical first shot/strike on target than the man who already is in position to pull the trigger.

    Thats a tactical advantage that cant be ignored, no matter what side of the fence you are on.

    Good legitimate points on all sides, but the argument is really an elementary exercise to a non conclusive end. Pick the weapon according to the mission, and use it accordingly.
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  16. #180
    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Does it really matter? I mean really, being able to have the gun on your person at the time of the incident is the most important thing, no matter what statistics say or the number of rounds on hand before a reload is neccessary. And thats where some miss the point, I believe.

    Additionally, a j frame carried in your pocket, allows you to walk around with a complete firing grip on the piece, and nobody even notices. People walk with their hands in the pocket all the time. And, regardless of if you are carrying the " master blaster" with unlimited capacity IWB, there is no way you can beat the speed of getting that first, and most critical first shot/strike on target than the man who already is in position to pull the trigger.

    Thats a tactical advantage that cant be ignored, no matter what side of the fence you are on.

    Good legitimate points on all sides, but the argument is really an elementary exercise to a non conclusive end. Pick the weapon according to the mission, and use it accordingly.
    Good point. I don't disagree. I think as a pocket gun the 5 shot light weight snub is hard to beat. I would much rather have it than my .380 when talking about pocket guns. That being said, I don't find pocket carry a comfortable way to carry the j frame. I bought mine with the intention of IWB carry. I think for IWB carry it pales a bit when compared to other guns (mainly sub compact autos) but still has a distinct advantage in certain categories.. Revolvers have always concealed better for me. The j frame and LCR are also lighter. To me the difference between a G26 IWB and a snubby is this. The G26 is not hard to conceal and not uncomfortable to carry. The snubby honestly disappears and I don't have any worry of it printing at all and I almost don't notice I am carrying it. I think the same holds true for a lot of people. The overall "footprint" of a 5 shot snubby and all of the support gear (holster, extra ammo) is smaller than that of most sub compact autos except for maybe a PM9/CM9. A week ago I would have said that the 5 shot snubby was preferable to the 6+1 PM/CM 9 because of reliability but after breaking my j frame in less than a week, that's debatable in my mind. I think glockmans original post stating that the j frame is the everymans (woman's) gun is honestly spot on. The 5 shot snubby is to CCW as the hammer is to carpentry. Hell, not even carpentry...Just owning a home. Or a apartment for that matter. It's kind of like a Leatherman multi tool. It's generally not ideal for any one situation however it serves adequately in the majority of situations and for the VAST majority of situations that the majority of people encounter, 5 shots will be MORE than enough ammo. That being said, I do not in any way, shape, or form think any less of anyone that feels that 5 shots isn't enough and decides to carry more. Will you statistically need it? Nope. But you know what they say about statistics.
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