How many times were 5 shots not enough?

This is a discussion on How many times were 5 shots not enough? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by marcclarke Sorry to be a wet blanket here, but Werner's numbers are completely meaningless. The NRA magazine's staff had some criteria (we ...

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Thread: How many times were 5 shots not enough?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Sorry to be a wet blanket here, but Werner's numbers are completely meaningless. The NRA magazine's staff had some criteria (we don't know what) for deciding which reports to not print and which to print. For all we know, the NRA editor had a rule that only incidents with fewer than 5 shots fired were selected. To have meaningful numbers we have to know the NRA editorial staff's selection and rejection criteria, we also have to have all the incidents that the NRA'a editorial staff chose *not* to print, plus we have to know all the incidents that the NRA editors never saw.

    The NRA's modest collection of incident reports is not a data set; it is the outcome of a deliberate editorial selection and rejection process. We don't know what the selection process is. We don't know what that rejection process is. We can't see all the incidents that the NRA's editorial staff chose not to print. For all we know the NRA's editorial staff is heavily biased in favor of pocket revolvers so they mostly chose to report stories where pocket revolvers did prevail or would have prevailed. Similarly, the NRA's editorial staff may have had a policy to simply not report on multi-attacker assaults, or to minimize reporting of multi-attacker assaults.

    A statistical analysis of cherry-picked data is completely meaningless, particularly if the cherry-picking was done by someone other than the person doing the so-called statistical analysis. Please do not make any decisions based on Werner's "analysis" of the NRA's thoroughly cherry-picked set of incidents.
    That is a point that I did not consider. Agreed.

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  3. #92
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    To me, all of this boils down to the likelihood of ever needing a weapon, and, should that very unlikely scenario ever happen, the likelihood that I would need more than five shots. I also need to consider the convenience of concealability and comfort. Balancing all of that, I'll stay with a five shot revolver and a speed strip or two. Some choose to have more with them, and that's fine by me.

    I suppose we could debate this all day.

    But such a debate is really moot when that semi-auto stovepipes after the first shot, right? (I'm not serious there, gents, stand down).

  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I can tell you of one case that five shots wasn't enough.

    I was the first responding officer. This is a long story,so bear with me.

    One hot summer night myself, and 9 other officers gathered up to do what we call a "warrants party". We did this a few times a year,when the warrants officer at the Sheriffs Office just couldn't keep up and they started backlogging. A lot of them were simple things, like "Failure to Appear" or non payment of child support, or violations of protective orders and things like that. Some of them were felony warrants, we usually saved them for last, doing the simple stuff first.

    We had two to a car, and this night a crew from Parole Dept went along with us, mostly for training. They had two news guys that had never been on a warrant, in fact one of them had never strapped on a gun until that night. I had the supervisor ride along with me.

    It was an uneventful night that resulted in several arrests, with most people posting bail and then going home. The ones with felony warrants were no issues, we had one runner take off through the back door and run right into an officer that was there waiting. He got cuffed and stuffed and that was about all the excitement we had.

    We showed up at a trailer house where someone was supposed to be, but the trailer was abandoned. Three cars were sitting there, windows open, we were about to call it a night when a domestic disturbance call went out. When doing special details, we did not respond to radio traffic as the other Deputy's on shift were there to handle it, so although we heard the call we ignored it. Within a couple of minutes, it escalated to a knock down drag out. Several witnesses had dialed 911 and the fight was getting violent. I started listening a bit closer, as it was only a mile and a half away from our location. A couple of minutes later, the call came out, "any unit respond, shots fired man down". As I was the team leader that night, with three cars sitting there, I made the call to go. I remember telling the Parole Officer that was with me to call her people and tell them to stay in the cars and do not get out. Last thing I needed to worry about was them.

    We got to the scene,and saw two people standing. When we drove up, they took off running. We apprehended them at gunpoint. A woman with much blood on her white top was rolling around in the grass yelling and screaming. I thought that she had been shot and went to her aid. As it turned out, she wasn't hit, but her ex husband was laying in the grass. He had been shot 6 times, point blank, by a 9mm.

    The shooter, which we apprehended, was her boyfriend. He was 21 and had just been released from prison, being on parole from aggravated assault. He was cranked up on meth.His buddy, also on meth, did not have a record. The ex-husband apparently walked in and his ex-wife and her boyfriend were sitting on the couch drinking beer. They got into a argument and it resulted in a fight in which the 50 year old ex husband stomped the young man and put the hurt on him. That should have been the end of it, but it was not. The young man went to his Dads house a mile down the road, and retrieved his dads pistol, a Hi-Point 9mm. He returned to the scene and got into another argument. Once again the ex-husband put the smack down on the kid. At some point the kid pulled the 9mm and shot the gun point blank. The ex-husband saw it coming and attempted to grab the gun. The first shot contacted him in the elbow and exited out the top of his shoulder.
    Shots 2,3,4 and 5 were point blank into the torso.

    The people that lived there witnessed the whole thing and they were traumatized.In the witness reports, ALL of them thought that the shots were missing because they noticed that the ex-husband didn't seem to have reacted like they thought he should have. None of them realized that he had been shot.

    The fight went on for several minutes.When the kid finally got the gun back into play, he placed the gun right on the chin of the ex-husband and pulled the trigger. That ended it.Witnesses said that we arrived about a minute after that happened. The kid placed the gun on the hood of a vehicle when he saw us, and he ran across the front of the yard, where we took them both down at gunpoint. We got the shooter, the smoking gun which was locked open on the vehicle not far from the body, and lots of people freaking out at what they had just witnessed. It was quite chaotic actually. I must have been ramped up on adrenaline when it all occurred as I had a hard time actually writing my part of the report. Its always amazed me how one can go from dull routine to a wild adrenaline flow within seconds.

    Now, I said all that to say this. The deceased ex- husband had a pretty good blood alcohol content in him. We was known to be an alcoholic and abusive to all around him. The shooter and his buddy, both were on meth and had been drinking for awhile.

    Ask yourself what would have happened if the shooter just happened to run into you and present a gun or make a threatening gesture. Do you think 5 shots would have been enough? In almost all shootings, at least one party was on drugs or alcohol. They are in an altered state of mind, and its not a normal one or things wouldn't have gone down as they did.

    Yeah, I realize that this story doesn't actually relate to most folks here because they are smarter than all of the players that night.

    On the other hand, when you figure out that you may have to defend yourself from some drug crazed syko that feels no pain and has a history of being a bad guy, and may be he is mad at the world cause his momma didn't treat him right when he was a kid, 5 shots in a revolver all of a sudden seems a bit short on the ammo. If Mr. Syko happens to have a big ugly knife and he wants to rob you because he is crashing and needs another hit of meth, are you going to be able to stop him before you get cut?

    Times are changing and the world continues to get crazier by the day. People are getting stupider, many of them have no morals,no sense of responsibility, some of them are angry at the world,and they are lacking even basic education.

    If you want to face that with only 5 shots, that it your call. As for me, I wont handicap myself when there are a host of better, more capable, more capacity guns out there. Even those are no guarantee that you will win a fight for your life, but why not stack the deck on your favor?

    It's your life and very possibly, the life of your loved ones.
    HG that is one hell of a good post. The bold part I will use if that is ok with you....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    I haven't read all responses, but enough to get the point that the OP isn't getting enough first hand responses from CCW citizens. The reason for that, may be due to the legal end of things. Someone involved in a shooting (even if 100% in the right, and vindicated in a court of law) may have been told for legal reasons to not go talking about the situation, especially on a forum. There's another CCW forum I've belonged to for like 5 years, and recently the search function stopped working on the site. I went to report it, and noticed another thread complaining about it, and the site owner said that there was a former member of the forum who the media was attempting to dig up his past posts on the forum, and it was happening so much that it brought the site to a crawl. So, the site owner deleted all his posts and disabled search. I don't know for sure that it was Zimmerman, but if I were a betting man....
    I know that forum, and don't make that bet.
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  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Theoretically, it should just be posts of those 1st hand accounts. I'm not debating the merits one way or another, just interested in those examples of when it occurs. Let the examples speak for themselves.
    With all due respect I call B.S. If you didn't want a debate you would have to include both sides (5 vs. more shots). I've got no problem with whatever some one wants to carry. It's their choice. But when I see a thread that is as thinly disguised as this is I have to laugh. You're comfortable with one of your snub's... great. Having some one agree or disagree should make no difference.

  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    Not directly answering your question, but: The Thinking Gunfighter: Self Defense Findings (avg. (and median?) number of shots fired: 2)
    And I wonder what the average and median times someone fastens their seat-belt before being involved in a serious, life threatening accident is????? Pretty large I'm guessing, better to have it and not need it, I know I always use my seat-belt.

  8. #97
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    Enjoyed the post by HotGuns. Very informative, but still not conclusive. It is food for thought, and that's always a good thing.
    I could relate a case pending trial right now where someone was supposedly in fear for his life and shot and killed someone in a night club last year. He shot the other party at very short distance with a 44 spl revolver, and if I remember correctly it was 1 or 2 shots, and it was lights out.

    We could take those two very real scenarios and deduce or read many things into them. We could argue that the caliber was the difference. Then it's another caliber war. We could determine that perhaps the bullets in the 9mm in HotGun's recollection was probably fmj and inadequate. Maybe one was a better shot. Or any number of different things could influence our opinions.
    I could tell about the single woman who called 911 to report a man looking in her window in a decent neighborhood, and then caught him crawling thru a downstairs window.
    We found him half in, half out, dead from a single shot from her dads heirloom Colt New Service revolver in 45 Colt that she shot him with. The bullets were so old they were deformed.

    But, the common denominator is they all had access to a firearm. Whether justified or not.

    Now, most people know I am a big fan of larger calibers, I too also like full sized guns. But I cannot always carry one. And I doubt that anyone here that is being truthful, carrys one all the time, everywhere. And if you do, that will change over time.

    That's why smaller, lower capacity guns are so popular with many people. For all they may seem to give up in capacity, they make up for in many other ways.

    The bottom line is you fight with what you have. So it's better in my opinion to accept the realities of life. We could vis vis this or that for years. But the best bet is to be honest with yourself and the realities of your everyday life. If you don't carry a small low cap gun from time to time, eventually you will, just as sure as the air you breath. So why not learn to make it work in the time of need, and be confident in it?

    Sure, you can stack the odds in your favor when it's easy and dress allows, but are you always going to have that advantage?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  9. #98
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    I feel fine with my 442 5 days out of the week. Concealment and comfort are more important for those five days than most anything else. I couldn't get away with anything larger. However I really do prefer a mid-size semi-auto 9mm or .45 with much greater capacity over the 442. With my freedom of wardrobe during the weekends, my 442 goes in the safe. Currently wearing a t-shirt and shorts with a G30SF IWB 4:00, 21 rounds of .45 ACP on my person. That's what I'm comfortable with right now.

    You'll always hear stories of the guys who took 25 shots to be put down and then lived to see time in court. But the truth is, the vast majority of the time you could probably get away with carrying an unloaded gun (which I obviously don't condone). You'll never predict what kind of situation you'll be in. If you feel you need the extra capacity, then by all means, carry it. If not, then don't. At the end of the day you'll carry what you're comfortable with both physically and mentally.

    I personally think that if I ever need to use my gun, shots will likely not need to be fired and if they are, less than 5 will be needed. But who am I to predict that? Hopefully that's the case when I have my 442. Hopefully that's the case even when I'm carrying something of higher capacity. The less shots that I need to fire the better.

  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    With all due respect I call B.S. If you didn't want a debate you would have to include both sides (5 vs. more shots). I've got no problem with whatever some one wants to carry. It's their choice. But when I see a thread that is as thinly disguised as this is I have to laugh. You're comfortable with one of your snub's... great. Having some one agree or disagree should make no difference.
    I carry a XD40sc about half the time and a S&W 442 about half the time. I'm not more inclined to one or the other generally, just depends on what I'm wearing and where I'm going. I don't care about other people's opinion and won't change because of them. I also don't know why anyone cares that other people choose to carry a 5 shot revolver. It's no skin off anyone's nose either way, so who really cares. I'm just curious in ACTUAL 1st hand experience rather than theories or opinions.

    Now that we are 97 posts deep, I'll be the first to give a 1st hand account. I was involved in a Home Defense shooting when I was 15 years old. I had a rifle with 13 rounds in it when 2 drunk men put a baseball bat through my bedroom window after vandalizing a car in our driveway. The first one was head and shoulders inside my bedroom when I pumped two 22lr rounds into the wall just below the window (with my trusty Remington Fieldmaster pump 22 my dad gave me...that I kept loaded in my bedroom at all times). He backed out and the two of them scrambled and fell off the porch and staggered off through the yard. I followed up with 3 shots in the dirt behind them as they left the yard. None of the rounds fired were intended to hit them, but I would have had no problem hitting them if he had continued to enter. The police were called, they were caught, and that was that.

    So, being the first one to actually post a 1st hand encounter, I shot 5 times and had 13 rounds at my immediate disposal. Take from it what you will. 2 grown men (1 armed with a baseball bat) vs. one 15 year old boy in his whitey tidies with a pump 22 rifle.


    PS. As I sit here and write this, I have my XD40sc IWB at 3 oclock position with two mags in my left pocket. 28 rounds total...but I just got home from a mall in Tampa. Yesterday I was on the beach all day in my swim trunks, I had my 442 in my front pocket. I can't do that with my XD.
    Last edited by BugDude; July 15th, 2012 at 06:43 PM. Reason: added PS
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    Well, BD, I guess I could retell the incident where I shot 2 guys I found stealing stuff in my house with a Mossberg 500. I had it loaded with 4 rounds, first 3 were birdshot, and the last was 00.
    Glad I never needed that last round. So, only 3 were needed, and probably just one, but I was pissed off about my Beta player and black and white Goldstar TV.
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    Beta player... so you were the one.
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  13. #102
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    Well, we're up to 2 1st hand accounts out of how ever many thousands of people who are members/active/etc. however you care to count them. One 3 rounds and one 5.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Well, we're up to 2 1st hand accounts out of how ever many thousands of people who are members/active/etc. however you care to count them. One 3 rounds and one 5.
    No fair! You had a high cap, lol.

    Man, those Speedmasters were nice 22's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    No fair! You had a high cap, lol.

    Man, those Speedmasters were nice 22's.
    Mine was a Fieldmaster pump 22 (pump version of the speed master). Here is one identical to the one I had in my youth (like a dummy, I sold it in college). I picked this one up in Roanoke, VA a few years ago and it is near mint. It was made in 1948. More fun than a person should be allowed to have. It shoots every bit as good as my original. Every time I take it out plinking, I feel like a kid again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    .... The first one was head and shoulders inside my bedroom when I pumped two 22lr rounds into the wall just below the window .... He backed out and the two of them scrambled and fell off the porch and staggered off through the yard. I followed up with 3 shots in the dirt behind them as they left the yard.
    By my count you only needed two rounds (I'm not making any judgement on the three extras - different times and you were just a kid, and I don't have any problem with it - just sayin' they were three extras, and not sure if those should count for the stats....I'd say the two got you out of the jam, and the three extras were "for emphasis").
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