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How many times were 5 shots not enough?

55K views 311 replies 109 participants last post by  Bad Bob 
#1 ·
In the last few days there have been some points debated regarding j-frames and 5 shots not being enough. This has had me thinking. Currently there are 59,776 members on this forum. That's a pretty good sample size. How many people here have personally needed MORE than 5 shots in a civilian SD (non-leo or military capacity) situation? Not something you read, or someone you know, but you personally. I'm just curious because this debate seems to pop up every couple of months and is heavily argued by both sides. It just got me thinking out of such a large sample size of people carrying, how many have actually been in a situation that necessitated more than that number of rounds. If you have a personal experience, please describe the circumstances surrounding it. This is a great educational opportunity to study the debate with real situations.
 
#3 ·
Man, this is right on point of what I've been REALLY pondering lately. If I had more time and pretty much no life - I would want to research all the civilian shootings and see how many shots are fired. I have almost no doubt 5 shots were plenty most of the time. I've been REALLY kicking around the idea of dumping my carry set up right now for a good ol 642 with crimson trace grips and call it good. Just dump it in my pocket and forget about it. I wonder sometimes that when I started looking at carry options if I wanted a semi to carry just cause I like them so much. I think I would enjoy just a simple carry setup with no more "options" or upgrades to consider. Been really close to just making the switch
 
#4 ·
So far, I have needed 0 shots in an SD situation. Does this mean I should stop carrying altogether?

The only civilian I personally know involved in a gunfight (co-worker) emptied his LCP into his attacker and the guy lived to face trial. Said co-worker traded for a higher capacity 9mm after his fight.
 
#8 ·
You are likely right. This is like a 9mm/45 thread. If one looks hard enough, there are outliers. Some dudes have been shot 15+ times and still persisted. On the other hand, Bernard Goetz fought off four attackers with a Model 60. Comes down to doing what you are comfortable with. Respect the decision either way.
 
#9 ·
Sorry, but my lack of personal victimhood won't disqualify me from responding to your statistically-loaded question. I mistakenly said this guy's .380 didn't get it done. It was his .45, with seven shots technically stopping the threat. The perpetrator's five shots came up way short against an armed response.This author of this account works in Marion:Welcome To Saved By a Gun
 
#64 ·
Great article. Thanks for posting it.
 
#11 ·
I hear what your saying BugDude, but I not vounteering to be the postor child for the{5 shots ain't enough} crowd, if and when something goes down.

How many of you guys pack extra clothes when going on vacation/business trips etc ,etc?

Got a spare tire?........4 should be enough, right, the're in great shape huh.

Got more food in the pantry/basement than you can eat in a few weeks to a month?
Why'd you do that, your going back next week right?


Too each their own
 
#12 ·
No personal experience with defensive shooting, but my guess would be 5 shots would be sufficient in 99% of defensive situations. Life is a gamble, you can plan for different contingencies but that doesn't mean it will go the way you have planned for.
 
#19 ·
However, you must do what makes yourself the most comfortable since you are the one having to live with the decision.
Or dying. :bigeyes:
 
#15 ·
While I don't agree with the fantasy mindset that one's life is like a scene from Resident Evil whenever one leaves the house, I do believe in being prepared for reasonable scenarios. And in this day and age multiple opponents is a likely scenario. Multiple opponent scenarios in which one, or both, opponents is also probably armed with more than a five shots.
 
#16 ·
I was only in one situation when I had to draw that was not duty related. That was about 2 years ago right down the road. I made a quick trip to the store, threw the j in my pocket.

While preparing to leave, a vicious fight broke out in the parking lot. 2 guys were beating this one up, and one had a big piece of wood. I broke it up, but when the guy with the stick refused to put it down and advanced, out came the j frame. It ceased all hostilities.

But I know that doesn't count. Ya gotta shootem dead before it means anything.
 
#22 ·
^^^^^^^
No fair, you're the Master.
They were all dead before You knew it.
 
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#21 ·
Wow is right.......I have an LCP with Hornady CD loaded. If I hit someone 7 times center mass and that did not stop the treat I would turn and run like I never ran before. In my shape I hope I would make it 200 feet or so before I dropped dead myself. :gah:
 
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#23 ·
I'll clarify my friend's fight for you guys:

It was night, in a parking area around several vehicles. Distance was less than 10 feet, and both parties were moving. Attacker had a knife.

Every round hit, but not every round was COM (I know one was a shoulder hit). As his incident typifies many real gunfights, do you still want to bet on merely having 5 or so shots in the gun?

It was a lot different than shooting at a stationary target on the range.
 
#24 ·
It all boils down to four things,1 the bullet placement where you hit your target either you hit the vital zone or you don't it makes all the difference , 2 caliber the larger the more damage, 3 distance you are shooting from which can change the performance of some calibers and the performance from a short barrel , 4 and what are you shooting it from a 1 1/2 inch barrel J frame? the longer the barrel the more energy it will gain, it has more time to gain energy with a longer barrel increasing the damage it will do...And also remembering that using a revolver you do lose some gas pressure between the cylinder and the barrel. The most important part is your placement the next is the bullet performance the longer the barrel the larger the caliber increases your odds and also that longer barrel give you a longer sight radius increasing your accuracy
 
#25 ·
Sounds to me you are looking for justification to carry a five shot gun and if that is what you want do it but as for me I choose to carry a gun with a little more fire power. I don't anticipate trouble but if it comes I want to be ready and to bring less to fight more is foolish.

What good is a gun with no ammo?
 
#26 ·
I didn't need more than five shots even having fired my weapon sevaral times as an active duty LEO. Vietnam, well, that was different.
 
#27 ·
I did read of one account where a revolver was emptied, but the fight continued hand-to-hand until the defender wrestled the attacker's shotgun away, and ended the fight with that. The account did not say how many hits were made with the revolver.

Personally, I would not be comfortable with only 5 shots. That's why my LCR is backed up by my LCP. At times, I will carry my G26. On duty, my primary is my Glock 30.

You can find accounts of folks not being stopped with any number of handgun rounds, of any caliber. Handguns suck. If your first few shots to the torso do not end things, try for the head. Continuing to shoot the torso when you do not see an effect is stupid - maybe the perp has a vest on?

I'll get the popcorn going...

:popcorn:
 
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#31 ·
Something else; the " you carry a spare tire" argument is weak bs that is always regurgitated by people who find it easier to follow the philosophy of others rather than think for themselves.

Most everyone has had a flat tire, and probably more. Very few people have been in a real SD situation where they had to use DF. The statistics are not even close.
 
#48 ·
Something else; the " you carry a spare tire" argument is weak bs that is always regurgitated by people who find it easier to follow the philosophy of others rather than think for themselves.

Most everyone has had a flat tire, and probably more. Very few people have been in a real SD situation where they had to use DF. The statistics are not even close.
Not weak at all. It simply says to be prepared. I carry both a spare tire and a weapon. I hope I won't need either. Sorry off topic.

Michael
 
#32 ·
From article;

If the defender fires any shots, most likely it will be 2 rounds.
The shooting distance in the vast majority of cases was slightly in excess of arm's length.
At this distances, even .22s and .25s are highly immediately lethal.
A revolver, even J-frame, is perfectly capable of dealing with almost all of the incidents.
The ones which were beyond the capabilities of a five shot revolver would be best deal with by a shotgun, anyway.
For those who do not practice, a revolver is far preferable to the autoloader because of the revolver's simpler manual of arms


^^^^^^^All we are doing here folks^^^^^^^^^^

is making a case for the anti-gun polititians to pass legislation which mimmicks Mexicos BS laws, which state all you can have is these many firearms, and in these calibers.

From Wikipedia:
Gun politics in Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ley Federal de Armas de Fuego y Explosivos (Federal Law of Firearms and Explosives)[3]

Generally, citizens are restricted by law to:
pistolas (handguns) of .380 Auto or .38 Special revolvers or smaller (.357 Magnum, .357 SIG, and 9x19mm Parabellum or larger are restricted)[4][5]
escopetas (shotguns) of 12 gauge or smaller, with barrels longer than 25 inches, and
rifles (rifles) bolt action and semi-auto.

Handguns in calibers bigger than those mentioned above are forbidden from private ownership without a federal license and restrictions similar to the U.S. National Firearms Act (NFA).

Examples of firearms that are legal for citizens to own include .380 ACP pistols, .38 Special revolvers, 12 gauge shotguns (no short-barreled shotguns are allowed) and rifles in any caliber with exceptions such as .30 Carbine, 7mm and 7.62 mm Carbines.

End quote;


I say, lets quit helping the very people who wish us left to defend ourselves with the resources that David had back in Biblical times.
 
#33 ·
So far of our 1st hand accounts of this population sample, we have 1 person (LEO in civilian capacity) who has had to draw in SD and no shots were fired. One LEO that has fired shots on duty, and they were all less than 5. Still not a single SD situation out of 59,000+ members necessitating more than 5 shots. While anything is possible, and you can always find examples on the interwebz (or stories of a friend someone knows, etc.), I am simply asking for 1st hand accounts out of this particular 59,000+ population. I'm just curious. I have numerous 5 shot revolvers and numerous high capacity auto-loaders and I carry both at different times depending on attire, circumstances, etc. I'm not married to one over the other.
 
#34 ·
Given the infrequency of non-LEO shooting by law-abiding citizens, your criteria was rigged from giddy-up. I see you chose to ignore my previous post completely.
 
#41 ·
Anticdotes may be found to statisicize (if you will) any point of view. How about the stopped threats with zero shots fired. How many unarmed victims disarm the attacker and turn his gun against him? I doubt there are examples of people getting killed because they had too much ammo on board.

In 18 years, 3 students each fired one shot to stop the attack, and 5 students fired none. Thankfully, a host of other students have reported that their mindset and awareness allowed them to avoid a confrontation altogether.

Does that mean a single snub is sufficient? Does that mean SA alone is good enough? Need more butter on the popcorn?
 
#42 ·
2, 5, or full standard .45 magazine, a full 9/40/.357 who knows how many shots it will take. Hopefully if any of us get into a shooting our shots will be center mass above the nipple line and centered between the shoulders but no hit on the shoulders.

If we have the right Aim with the right bullets we should be fine.

We all will carry different guns into battle with different capacities, some will have one, others will have many. Some are bringing a rifle/shotgun to bear and backed by up their pistol.

The outcome will be dead or seriously wounded thugs, if we go down also let it be after all threats have been eliminated by how ever many shots it takes.
 
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