There's no way an M&P is a DAO...

This is a discussion on There's no way an M&P is a DAO... within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I posted in a thread a while back that the M&P had a SAO trigger. I was 'corrected' that it is a DAO and I ...

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Thread: There's no way an M&P is a DAO...

  1. #1
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    There's no way an M&P is a DAO...

    I posted in a thread a while back that the M&P had a SAO trigger. I was 'corrected' that it is a DAO and I conceded that it was because I looked up what S&W calls it and they call it a DAO. It is NOT!

    The M&P is no more a DAO than an XD is - they both use a sear to hold the striker in it's fully cocked position. The trigger bar in both rotate the sear which releases the striker. They use different mechanisms but both work from a fully cocked striker, held in the fully cocked position by a sear.

    Let's talk about the meanings first. SAO means Single Action Only - i.e. clearly only one action is performed by the trigger - that is to release the striker or hammer. DAO means the trigger does more than one thing. The two things it does is move the hammer or striker into its release position and then releases it.

    Glock is an example of the latter, DAO. The striker in a Glock is only partially set by the slide returning into battery so something has to move the striker into its firing position. When the trigger is pulled, it moves the striker rearward into the final firing position and then releases it - two things.

    Next let's look at a Sig in the SA mode. When the slide travels rearward, the hammer is cocked, and the hammer is held in its final position by the sear. The hammer can not be moved further rearward by the trigger. Pulling the trigger rotates the sear away from the hammer sear and releases the hammer - SA. Now to the M&P - and I'm just going to copy the few sentences in this paragraph and change 'hammer' to striker.

    When the slide travels rearward, the striker is cocked and the striker is held in its final position by the sear. The striker can not be moved further rearward by the trigger. Pulling the trigger rotates the sear away from the striker sear and releases the striker - SA.

    The exact same thing happens in an XD - the striker is held in its final position, fully cocked, by a sear, not the trigger bar.

    Kind of interesting.
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    FDE
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    Its striker fired...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDE View Post
    Its striker fired...
    SAO/DAO is not defined by striker or hammer fired if that's what you were alluding to. An XD is striker fired and is considered to be a SAO. An M&P is striker fired and considered a DAO, although it works exactly like the XD.
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    Does it matter? As long as that initial trigger pull isn't distinctly more heavy then the following ones are,
    AND so long as the mechanism for holding the striker or the hammer in place is entirely safe, does it
    matter?

    Are there more ND with SXs or M&Ps than with Gs because of the design? Are there more
    accidental discharges upon one being dropped to the ground in either category?

    I own neither G, SX or M&P and have a preference for DA/SA -- but, does it matter beyond
    personal preference. Is there any evidence that one system is "better" than the others either for safety,
    reliability, or SD use?
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    100% onboard with you about M&P and XD, but not sure I agree with calling the Glock DAO. If all we can call something is either SA or DA, then yes, it's DA because it does two things. But the Glock is sort of a hybrid. With a true DA, if you have a weak strike or hard primer, you could pull the trigger again and get a full hammer/striker cock and fall. With the Glock, the trigger is dead until the slide cycles.

    Potato Potato, I know, but when I think DA, it brings up a specific type of trigger.

    We need a new acronym.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Does it matter?...
    All good points, but I tend to think it does matter. I see it the same way as you from an individual perspective, but from other perspectives I think it may be huge. E.g. A police department sets a requirement that service guns have to be DAO. Glock passes the test, M&P does, but shouldn't, XD doesn't.

    It also seems to matter in competitions.

    But, just for the record, I really don't have a dog in this fight, well, actually I do - an two XDs, two M&Ps, and I'm not telling how many Glocks. I just think it's curious that for two guns that work just alike, one gets classified DAO and the other SAO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NH_Esau View Post
    100% onboard with you about M&P and XD, but not sure I agree with calling the Glock DAO. If all we can call something is either SA or DA, then yes, it's DA because it does two things. But the Glock is sort of a hybrid. With a true DA, if you have a weak strike or hard primer, you could pull the trigger again and get a full hammer/striker cock and fall. With the Glock, the trigger is dead until the slide cycles.

    Potato Potato, I know, but when I think DA, it brings up a specific type of trigger.

    We need a new acronym.
    Yeah, good points. There does seem to be a 'true' DA just like you described it, and I know of no exceptions to 'true' DAs as far as re-strike capabilities go.

    I guess I wasn't heading in the direction of definitions, etc. per se, but more of a curiosity as to how the M&P gets the highly desirable DAO classification and a gun that works just like it gets classified SAO.
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    DA doesn't mean that you can repeatedly fire after the first trigger pull. It means it takes two actions with a trigger pull to fire the weapon. A glock partially cocks the striker. The trigger pull fully cocks the striker and releases. The fact that the slide must be cycled has no bearing on whether or not the gun is double action or single action. Just because a revolver does it one way, doesn't mean other guns can't do it differently. The company can call it whatever they want, but glocks are DAO.

    My $0.02

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotus222 View Post
    DA doesn't mean that you can repeatedly fire after the first trigger pull. It means it takes two actions with a trigger pull to fire the weapon. A glock partially cocks the striker. The trigger pull fully cocks the striker and releases. The fact that the slide must be cycled has no bearing on whether or not the gun is double action or single action. Just because a revolver does it one way, doesn't mean other guns can't do it differently. The company can call it whatever they want, but glocks are DAO.

    My $0.02
    I understand what you're saying, but DA/SA guns and all DAO revos have re-strike capability as an inherent part of the DA system; the striker fired guns don't.

    I agree that it is technically correct that if the trigger does two things it cannot be SA. But if DA has traditionally meant an action with re-strike capability, it seems that we are introducing a new concept, DA without re-strike capability and calling it the same as the longer standing DA with restrike capability.

    Maybe that's ok; it's ok with me anyway.

    But still the thread isn't about the definition of SAO and DAO, but about how the M&P could be classified as a DAO when it clearly isn't.
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    Indeed. And I find that it is odd that it is classified that way. As you said earlier, maybe it is classified as such so that departments can issue the gun if DA is a requirement. ...Although, I'm not sure about the reasoning behind the classification. Gotta love that red tape.

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    I think that it is meaningless to classify a striker fired pistol as SA or DA. Given that each design is mechanically safe, it all comes down to the trigger pull weight and length of pull. The major brand striker fired pistols aren't that different with regards to trigger pull weight and length, regardless of whether the striker falls from a fully cocked position or is drawn rearward a fraction of an inch before falling.

    The whole reason that LE agencies wanted DA or DA/SA pistols, rather than SA pistols (ie:1911) many years ago is because of the perceived safety of the longer, heavier DA trigger pull. With the widespread acceptance of the Glock in LE, that is now irrelevant. The "safe action" designation by Glock was a stroke of genius, back when they were trying to gain acceptance with LE agencies in the US many moons ago.

    For all intents and purposes, it doesn't make any difference what you call it. Striker fired is striker fired.
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    Are you sure the M&P is held in the fully cocked position after the slide cycles? I don't feel like tearing down my M&P right now but I believe the sear has a stepped/angled face so when it is rotating down it pushes the striker back slightly to it's fully cocked position.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    Are you sure the M&P is held in the fully cocked position after the slide cycles? I don't feel like tearing down my M&P right now but I believe the sear has a stepped/angled face so when it is rotating down it pushes the striker back slightly to it's fully cocked position.
    I've had more than a few M&P's on my workbench, it's a SAO as Tangle has described. The trigger simply mimics a soft double action without being so.
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    Glock and Smith are both "pre-set". They can't be classified as DAO(IMO) because the action of slide partially re-cocks the striker, making the trigger pull not as light as SA, but not as heavy as a DA either. They are a hybrid, plain and simple.

    To try and answer your question: Maybe S&W claims its DAO because the trigger does complete the cocking of the striker and then also releases it, so it does perform two actions I suppose....
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost View Post
    Glock and Smith are both "pre-set". They can't be classified as DAO(IMO) because the action of slide partially re-cocks the striker, making the trigger pull not as light as SA, but not as heavy as a DA either. They are a hybrid, plain and simple.

    To try and answer your question: Maybe S&W claims its DAO because the trigger does complete the cocking of the striker and then also releases it, so it does perform two actions I suppose....
    The difference in the Glock and S&W actions is the M&P striker is fully set whereas the Glock striker is not fully set. The trigger of the Glock actually moves the striker rearward a significant distance before it releases.

    The M&P striker is fully set by the slide coming forward. The striker is held in the fully cocked position by the sear. The trigger only rotates the sear which releases the striker in much the same way as any other SA.
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