Importance of that first shot on target?

Importance of that first shot on target?

This is a discussion on Importance of that first shot on target? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I carry a USPc 9mm. Great gun. I have the DA/SA trigger (I just feel more comfortable with a DA/SA trigger and a actual safety) ...

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Thread: Importance of that first shot on target?

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    Member Array darebear's Avatar
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    Importance of that first shot on target?

    I carry a USPc 9mm. Great gun. I have the DA/SA trigger (I just feel more comfortable with a DA/SA trigger and a actual safety) and I carry it in the condition that the first pull will be the 10lb DA pull (safety off)... Please excuse my ignorance, I don't know exactly what number condition that is. I can get hits on target with the 10lb DA pull but my accuracy is better with striker fire and SAO when getting the first shot on target. So am I doing myself a dis-service by carrying a DA/SA gun?

    I read a article from Larry Vickers in which he said carrying a DA/SA gun is not practical for self defense... So are they practical? Are they not? Are there any service members here that can share their view on carrying the DA/SA Beretta? Can any members on this forum that conceal carry DA/SA guns please share their experiences and advice... Thank you for all your feedback.


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    Senior Member Array 380ACP's Avatar
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    I carry a Bersa Thunder 9 UC Pro from time to time which is a DA/SA gun and do not feel at a disadvantage with it.

    Like almost anything that one person will tell you is "impractical", it just needs a little practice to overcome.
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    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Armed Forces member experience with DA/SA is less relevant to SD situations in that first shot on target is not often as important as getting rounds in the general direction of the target in order to suppress the threat to allow the time to gain better SA/SU (I'm speaking to the usual carrier of a pistol in the service) as oppose to an operator, whether it be white or lack SOF since collateral damage is a much more accepted reality in conventional military environments than in civilian self defense situations). Just my two cents.
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  4. #4
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by darebear View Post
    I carry a USPc 9mm. Great gun. I have the DA/SA trigger (I just feel more comfortable with a DA/SA trigger and a actual safety) and I carry it in the condition that the first pull will be the 10lb DA pull (safety off)... Please excuse my ignorance, I don't know exactly what number condition that is. I can get hits on target with the 10lb DA pull but my accuracy is better with striker fire and SAO when getting the first shot on target. So am I doing myself a dis-service by carrying a DA/SA gun?

    I read a article from Larry Vickers in which he said carrying a DA/SA gun is not practical for self defense... So are they practical? Are they not? Are there any service members here that can share their view on carrying the DA/SA Beretta? Can any members on this forum that conceal carry DA/SA guns please share their experiences and advice... Thank you for all your feedback.
    It's still "Condition 1" as the gun is loaded in a ready to be fired position.


    Condition 2 originated with the 1911 and was when the hammer was down and had to be manually cocked in order for the gun to fire.

    Regarding the DA/SA trigger, the heavy pull is treated like a "safety" in that you need to overcome a greater amount of resistance in order to MAKE the gun fire.

    If you are not willing to put the time in to learning the DA part of the equation, yeah you're probably doing yourself a disservice.

    How important it is varies. If all you have time for is one shot when defending yourself from a lethal attack, it's pretty darn important.

    What is the level of accuracy vs. time? Where are your hits when shooting DA on the fist shot? Do you have access to a shot timer to see the actual amount of time needed to make a more accurate DA shot vs. a more accurate SA shot?

    There are guys out there that are quite good with a DA gun, you can be one of them but you need to re-evaluate your range practice and force yourself to fire more DA shots. Fire, de-cock, fire, de-cock, fire, de-cock etc.


    DRY FIRE IS HUGE. If you want to get good at the DA trigger, do more dry fire.


    Another option is looking at the light LEM conversions or a hybrid LEM conversion, but that will result in a DAO gun, but you can retain the safety

    ...


    I just re-read your post, are you carrying hammer down with the safety on or off???

    This seems a little conflicting:
    I carry a USPc 9mm. Great gun. I have the DA/SA trigger (I just feel more comfortable with a DA/SA trigger and a actual safety) and I carry it in the condition that the first pull will be the 10lb DA pull (safety off).
    Why the safety if you're not going to use it?

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    LV makes a good argument........see NY Police shooting.

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    I've gone back and forth with this issue for quite some time........ We're told that most self defense situations occur at close range, say 3-5 yards. At that range I can put rounds on target with almost any handgun I own......and rather quickly. Now, further out........say 10-15 yards, my double action shot is not as accurate as following single action shots.....but I feel I have longer to get my shot off......so I don't really see that as an issue. I have 3 da/sa Sig Sauer pistols and also a couple of Glocks. With the Sigs, you're stuck with that 10lb da pull, but then you get to that sweet 4.4lb single action pull with a very short reset. I prefer my Sigs over my Glocks since the sa pull is much nicer than the Glock trigger. I also own a couple of 1911's, but don't carry them.....I prefer handguns without safeties. I with others that have commented that you probably need more dry fire practice. I also find that shooting double action revolvers at the range helps greatly with my trigger control and accuracy with my da/sa pistols. Bottom line....I don't think you are shorting yourself by carrying and shooting that Beretta. They are fine firearms and da/sa pistols have been out there for a long time and are carried by thousands of military and law enforcement personnel.

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    Member Array darebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    It's still "Condition 1" as the gun is loaded in a ready to be fired position.


    Condition 2 originated with the 1911 and was when the hammer was down and had to be manually cocked in order for the gun to fire.

    Regarding the DA/SA trigger, the heavy pull is treated like a "safety" in that you need to overcome a greater amount of resistance in order to MAKE the gun fire.

    If you are not willing to put the time in to learning the DA part of the equation, yeah you're probably doing yourself a disservice.

    How important it is varies. If all you have time for is one shot when defending yourself from a lethal attack, it's pretty darn important.

    What is the level of accuracy vs. time? Where are your hits when shooting DA on the fist shot? Do you have access to a shot timer to see the actual amount of time needed to make a more accurate DA shot vs. a more accurate SA shot?

    There are guys out there that are quite good with a DA gun, you can be one of them but you need to re-evaluate your range practice and force yourself to fire more DA shots. Fire, de-cock, fire, de-cock, fire, de-cock etc.


    DRY FIRE IS HUGE. If you want to get good at the DA trigger, do more dry fire.


    Another option is looking at the light LEM conversions or a hybrid LEM conversion, but that will result in a DAO gun, but you can retain the safety

    ...


    I just re-read your post, are you carrying hammer down with the safety on or off???

    This seems a little conflicting:


    Why the safety if you're not going to use it?
    I never use the safety, but for me it's just one of those things where "rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it". It's just a comfort level thing for me.

    I've been back and forth about the LEM. I have it on my USP9f and I do like it but I have to go SLOWWWWWW with the LEM. The LEM is a special trigger... def something you can't just run and gun with as soon as you pick it up... I can def get a more fast and more accurate first shot on target with my USPc9mm. I guess it's just been 3 years of shooting DA/SA HK's that enables me to do that... I just need more time behind the LEM trigger.

    Dry firing is a big part for me because I'm only getting to the range about twice a month and sometimes only once a month. I just need to get some new snap caps... Extractor has torn up the snap caps I have. Thanks for the link I'll check it out now.

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    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    For me, I like the consistent trigger pull of a striker fired pistol. I like knowing that the trigger will be the same for all shots fired. But to each his own. If you have definitely decided to stay with DA/SA then practice is the key.

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    "DRY FIRE IS HUGE. If you want to get good at the DA trigger, do more dry fire."

    This! There is no other way to get there without dry-fire practice.

    I'm not rich and famous like Larry Vickers but I take the view that the DA/SA pistol is way undervalued as a choice for personal self-defense. The DAO mindset has hammered DA/SA relentlessly for some years now as being ineffective, unnecessarily complicated, and downright unsafe and that's a disservice to the person concerned with self-defense who is examining handgun choices. DA/SA looks like an intelligent way to do serious self-defense pistols to me even though I don't currently have one on hand. I would be willing to consider any of several DA/SA pistol but am uninterested in DAO guns. I like choices.

    "So am I doing myself a dis-service by carrying a DA/SA gun"

    You are in no way doing yourself a disservice to carry a DA/SA gun. Lots of folks do it and are well protected despite the strident cries of the ultimate suitability of DAO designs. No one can truthfully tell the DA/SA user otherwise. There is more than one way to skin a cat. A pistol that can deliver trigger choices can be advantageous. I like the notion myself. One does not have to subscribe to the notion that:

    I don't trust myself to...
    I might not be able to do it when...
    It seems so unsafe to...
    It has to be simple for me so...

    Only one opinion but the whole DAO thing seems to come from a position of: "I can't..." It's an embarrassing way to couch a debate. Admittedly, not all who espouse DAO designs are coming from such a point of view but many do and they occasionally post here on the Forum.

    DAO pistols of all types have a place and are deservedly popular but they shouldn't be considered the default "intelligent" choice for personal self-defense because they're not.
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    Agree with all on the need to dry fire extensively to gain familiarity and muscle memory necessary to use a DA/SA in an SD situation. My response in particular was focused on the military aspect since conventional units do not train extensively to address the DA/SA challenges and that their situation is different than SD.

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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Vickers is an extremely knowledgable, well-respected source. Yet also is an outspoken user, builder & fan of the 1911. I understand & appreciate his argument. But with all the modern developments in handgun design, the 1911 is increasingly becoming an EXPERT'S, rather than a mainstream, weapon. Fewer & fewer organizations (military & LE) are "comfortable" issuing SA autoloaders because fewer & fewer of their new recruits are familiar with the required, uh...awareness necessary to safely carry & effective use a SA pistol. So more & more DA/SA or "safety-trigger" pistols are found in holsters. As for first-shot effectiveness, Dave Sevigny runs a very, very FAST GLOCK. But it's still tough for him to beat the top Unlimited (SA) shooters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokinFool View Post
    For me, I like the consistent trigger pull of a striker fired pistol. I like knowing that the trigger will be the same for all shots fired. But to each his own. If you have definitely decided to stay with DA/SA then practice is the key.
    Ditto. I think for myself this is best for a carry gun. I started out with a DA/SA, but soon started to think this way. I also try to shoot my carry gun the most, to know that trigger best. Although, I still take my CZ to the range ALOT and sometimes I shoot in DA just for fun, I have realized that with practice it is pretty capable of being learned, and makes some REALLY nice follow up shots in SA. If for any reason I needed or wanted to carry it, I would feel confident in my first shot with just a few sessions to further master the DA pull.
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    I'm not a big fan of the DA/SA trigger system because I am all about consistency. I don't like having one trigger pull being followed up by a totally different trigger pull. That being said... it's general accepted that in a high stress situation you will default to how you have trained so if you train with it (like JD said) you should be fine.
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    sgb
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    DA/SA guns are the result of Military & LE thinking circa 1940's thru the 1990's, developed as the answer to SAO auto loaders. DA/SA takes more work to master than any system that operates on a consistent shot to shot trigger system, but is doable.
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    Member Array darebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    DA/SA guns are the result of Military & LE thinking circa 1940's thru the 1990's, developed as the answer to SAO auto loaders. DA/SA takes more work to master than any system that operates on a consistent shot to shot trigger system, but is doable.
    The Germans had SAO autoloaders? I thought the DA/SA was introduced with the P38 for the German army to safely carry a pistol in condition one. I don't think the DA/SA was introduced to replace SAO autoloaders initially. And I was under the impression that the Beretta replaced the 1911 not because of ineffecient training and safety reasons but because of financial reason...

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