The Pro Sight Advantage - it's what's on my SD G17 and it's gonna stay on it...

[GlassWolf]

I can already see a problem with these sights. They are ramped on the front side of the rear sight. This makes them virtually impossible to use for one-handed manipulation in high stress situations, not allowing you to rack the slide off of your holster, or heel of your boot. I'm not sure about a Philips screw for the mount, either. I'd rather it be a Torx or Allen/hex screw. Philips strip out too easily.

Also, are these night sights? If not, they wouldn't do well in low light, either. Probably good sights for competition, but not SD.

That's just my initial observations/thoughts.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Tangle]

I can already see a problem with these sights. They are ramped on the front side of the rear sight. This makes them virtually impossible to use for one-handed manipulation in high stress situations, not allowing you to rack the slide off of your holster, or heel of your boot.

I'm not pushing Pro Sights, but....well, yes, I am, but from the perspective I like the results I get with them. Just to address the points...

If you look at the pic in my OP, you'll see there is a straight edge before the ramp starts - that's plenty for a belt or holster sight hook. Plus, when the Marines spec'd their 1911, they asked for Novak sights which are ramped. They said they would rather have the ramp and they could still rack the slide with the sight. That kind of surprised me, but that's what they said.

...I'm not sure about a Philips screw for the mount, either. I'd rather it be a Torx or Allen/hex screw. Philips strip out too easily.

DRM just addressed why he uses the SS Philips screw about three posts back,

"Again, I went with the stainless by request of guys in the field using them. They had rust issues and then the Allen socket would strip out. So, we went with the SS (+) screw.

Blacking out the screw is a pretty simple procedure, but it needs to be done after the sights are installed and you're happy with the zero. "

...Also, are these night sights? If not, they wouldn't do well in low light, either. Probably good sights for competition, but not SD.

I guess there are differing opinions on night sights. I like them and I don't like them. I like them for that narrow band of lighting where you can ID a threat and the night sights are starting to show up.

A problem I've noticed with people's perception of night sights is that they base the useful illumination levels on seeing the sights almost exclusively. We like to see those nice bright green dots. But there's a lot more to it than just seeing sights. We need to see not only the threat, but be able to ID the threat, and even further see well enough to know why he's a threat.

Night sights only let us see the sights; they do nothing to help us with the rest. I.e. can see that he's presenting a gun/knife instead of a cell phone, drink can, or flashlight? ID'ing a threat and/or what's in his hands in subdued lighting is more than night sights can give us. I'm not opposed to them, I'm opposed to using them past their limitations.

As light levels diminish, we need to use a flashlight, period. Why not? Too much trouble to use a flashlight to clearly see what a threat has in his hands? Even at light levels where we can still recognize faces, the face could be illuminated sufficiently, but shadows could make it difficult to distinguish what's in his hands.

I've always i.e. ALWAYS, been a night sight fan; now I'm not so sure. I have been guilty of thinking if I know he's a threat, that's all I need to know and all I need to see is my sights. That's just not enough, at least for me. For quite sometime now I've quit automatically putting night sights on my handguns.

They are nice at night to locate the handgun, but then anybody can see the glow as well. It's very unlikely a threat to the front could see the night sights, but if you are hidden with your gun up, and a threat approaches from the rear, guess what he'll see?

[GlassWolf]

I still prefer a "cahrger" style rear sight front-angle, similar to that of Rob Pincus's "charger" sights. They're angled forward, with an aggressive rake allowing for an easy hook on nearly anything for racking. This could be very important when you're relying on gross motor skills from adrenaline, or injury. I love the Marines, and the military in general, but honestly, most of their purchasing isn't done by warriors, but by bean counters.

In regards to night sights, I shoot in events that require the use of either night sights or lasers to participate, and while a flashlight is good in pitch black, it also ruins your night vision, so sometimes night sights are preferable when you need to have a wide field of vision, while searching for an adversary.

As you said, it depends on the situation and conditions. Ideally, TruGlo or a similar company would make TFO sights for a lot more gun models.. including the ones I own.

I may prefer a Torx for tightening a screw without stripping, but I will give you this: a Phillips screwdriver is something you can find nearly anywhere without effort, which is handy in the field.

[RubenZ]

I don't see the big deal about stripping the screw. Your tightening some sights, not holding a 2 ton I-Beam.

[Tangle]

I still prefer a "cahrger" style rear sight front-angle, similar to that of Rob Pincus's "charger" sights. They're angled forward, with an aggressive rake allowing for an easy hook on nearly anything for racking. This could be very important when you're relying on gross motor skills from adrenaline, or injury.

That sounds more like a preference than a problem. I am confident one can rack the slide with the rear sight and the Pro Sights rear sight is better protected than any sight I've seen.

...I love the Marines, and the military in general, but honestly, most of their purchasing isn't done by warriors, but by bean counters.

I doubt that bean counters write the specs for the Marine's guns or choose their sights for them.

...In regards to night sights, I shoot in events that require the use of either night sights or lasers to participate, and while a flashlight is good in pitch black

OK, we are not talking about Pro Sights alone anymore which is fine. We're now looking at what night sights are for and what flashlights are for. Night sights are for one thing - shooting in darkness - that's all. They aren't for searching, etc. just shooting. They in no way allow us to identify a threat or what's in the potential threat's hands.

A flashlight is far more useful than just in pitch black. Flashlights allow us to see things quicker that could be dangerous to us even in subdued lighting.

...it also ruins your night vision

Shooting someone that isn't a threat would ruin a lot more than night vision. If you're in a situation where a flashlight would ruin your night vision, you clearly need the flashlight, how else would you ID a person as a threat or non-threat and what's in his hands?

...so sometimes night sights are preferable when you need to have a wide field of vision, while searching for an adversary.

How do you know he's an adversary? How do you know he's not an innocent that's trying to escape from the adversary? How does night sights help you see what's in who's hands?

...As you said, it depends on the situation and conditions. Ideally, TruGlo or a similar company would make TFO sights for a lot more gun models.. including the ones I own.

Yes, our response to any SD situation must be driven by the situation. We have to assess the situation as completely as we can or until we know for sure what's going on. In subdued lighting, sights don't help us do that at all - flashlights do.

[DRM]

I don't see the big deal about stripping the screw. Your tightening some sights, not holding a 2 ton I-Beam.

The problems usually occur when removing the screw, mainly because of rust. As a Pistolsmith, I've have seen many, MANY, set screws in fixed sights "roll or round" out the hex sockets. The Phillips (+) fixed the problem we encountered.

I may prefer a Torx for tightening a screw without stripping, but I will give you this: a Phillips screwdriver is something you can find nearly anywhere without effort, which is handy in the field

Me, too. I love the Torx heads. Just may be hard to find one when you really need it.

[DRM]

I love the Marines, and the military in general, but honestly, most of their purchasing isn't done by warriors, but by bean counters.

I've not dealt with any bean counters, just a few face shooters. I highly value their input, service and sacrifice for our country.

And I REALLY do appreciate ALL the comments from everyone. Thanks for helping me to continually improve the Pro-Sight® line.

V/R

[GlassWolf]

Not a preference, a fact of physics. If the sight has a ramp, there's more chance of slippage when racking with the sight bar.

You don't always have access to a flashlight when carrying a handgun.

If I'm being attacked, or someone is in my home other than me, it's an adversary. Pretty simple.

Every situation is different. If you don't feel a need for night sights, then don't use them. Others will disagree.

I don't think you've ever been involved with contracting for the military. I have. Trust me, it's never the guys on the front lines making these decisions.

Enjoy your sights. I'm glad you're happy with them.

[Tangle]

Not a preference, a fact of physics. If the sight has a ramp, there's more chance of slippage when racking with the sight bar.

I've had lot's of physics, I've yet to see that stated in physics.

...You don't always have access to a flashlight when carrying a handgun.

Yes, I do always have access to a flashlight when carrying a handgun. Soon to be one of two flashlights when I'm carrying a handgun.

...If I'm being attacked, or someone is in my home other than me, it's an adversary. Pretty simple.

What about all the other scenarios that aren't in your home?

If you're trying to convince me you can substitute night sights where a flashlight is needed, I'm unconvinced. If you're shooting in the dark, at shadows, because you can see your sights.....

...I don't think you've ever been involved with contracting for the military. I have. Trust me, it's never the guys on the front lines making these decisions.

Are you claiming that accountants that will never see the guns, gear, etc. make the call on what weapon is needed for the fighting Marines?

[GlassWolf]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, as you're completely unwilling to consider any view, or opinion other than your own, as evidenced by your constant onslaught of trying to disprove every statement I make. I'm simply pointing out problems that I see with the sight, that you've absolutely failed to disprove so far. If you're happy with them then great. The thing is, not everybody is you, and you're not everybody else.

[DRM]

Here's a prototype of the "Hooker Mod" now available:



Thanks for the input!

[Tangle]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything...

Well, that's not exactly true.

This has gone far beyond Pro Sights. We seem to be debating the applications of night sights and flashlights.

My simple position is, if it's dark, even subdued lighting, we need a flashlight to ID a potential threat and to see what they're doing with their hands. Night sights can't/won't work for that.

If we agree on that then the only thing we don't agree on is that I can't rack the slide with my Pro Sight and the bean counters selecting sights for the Marines.

[ghost tracker]

Hooker Mod makes A LOT of sense! Sight makers have become increasingly aware that the capability of a one-hand slide rack is a realistic part of modern gunfight tactics. So squared shoulders started showing-up on Heinie "LEDGE" rear sights. Yours takes that valuable utility one step (pardon the pun) further. That Hooker Mod is clearly a fine implementation of an already good idea. Kinda' like the Emerson Wave for opening a folding knife, I'm not sure it's the BEST way anyone will EVER design. But it's by far the best way...right NOW! Thanks for the continued product development.

[GlassWolf]

that hooker mod looks very nice.

Tangle, let's just shake hands, so to speak, and call it a day, bro. I don't really want to 'argue." I appreciate your review, and I'm sorry things have gone this direction. On an unrelated note, what are your thoughts on these solid black rear sights I've been seeing on more handguns lately? (no rear dots, U, bar, etc.. just blacked out with a V or notch in back, usually with a front dot sight of some sort.)
I believe they are meant to allow a faster, less distracting sight picture acquisition, but I find them difficult to use. I do a lot better with a 3-dot.

[Tangle]

I made a claim that one could rack the slide with Pro Sights as is. I don't deny the hook is better, but it could be more painful too. Just so everyone knows I'm not blowing smoke about racking the slide: