Are lasers worth it?

This is a discussion on Are lasers worth it? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ScottM But many will have common traits. I don't like averages, but stats say (they've been repeated here enough times) that fights ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    But many will have common traits.

    I don't like averages, but stats say (they've been repeated here enough times) that fights occur up close and really quickly with few shots fired. That's why so many say they don't need to 'train' past 7yds.

    No, not all happen that way. That's why I train out to 100yds myself.

    That' why I believe most fights will be over before the laser can be seen.
    Maybe - and maybe not. Impossible to say before the fact. If you read the testimonials of those who have used laser sights in real-word confrontations (including some folks on this very forum) you may find a different perspective.

    To put it a different way - I have yet to read an after action review of someone who used a laser sight in a real-world encounter, who later said having the laser was a bad idea, or that they would be taking it off their weapon, or even that it made no difference one way or the other. That says something to me.
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  3. #47
    Member Array Rhuarc3's Avatar
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    I have a lasermax uni-max green on my m&p 9 and after 50 rounds at the range I had to take it off and clean the lense. When on the pistol it is even with the end of the barrel so it got pretty filthy. But it was great when it wasn't covered.

    Very good for when you are half asleep and trying to clear your house but you need to train with it because it will light up the entire room. So just with a flashlight you need to employ light discipline so as not to reveal your position.

    I zeroed mine for 25 ft which is the farthest distance I would need in my house. Used a bore laser to zero it.

    Green is definitely brighter than red especially in daylight.


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  4. #48
    Senior Member Array FLSlim's Avatar
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    I'm not a big fan, BUT I recently put a CT on my old S&W M36. The reason was my aging eyes. With all my other handguns I can pick up the sights fine (most are black rear and NS or white dot front), but the sights on the 36 are very small and I was just not getting the accuracy I desired. CT laser grip and problem solved.

    In very low light or darkness, your really need a light so you can see what it is that you are putting your sights on. The laser may allow you to hit the target, but you really need to be sure of what the target is.
    Chose a weapon that goes bang EVERY time!

  5. #49
    Distinguished Member Array Arborigine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    You'll find varying opinions on lasers. I personally don't use them. If you are going to use a laser on your gun, make sure you can accurately shoot it without the laser first. If the laser fails in a defensive situation, and your not proficient with the gun, you may very will be in a deep world of do-do.
    Conversely, if you are proficient, and your laser fails, you should have developed the muscle memory to shooting on target. The LCP is short and tough to be accurate with, and hopefully, will only be used for SD at short range where finding and lining up the inadequate iron sight is too slow.
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  6. #50
    Member Array neverenough's Avatar
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    I have bigger calibers and lesser.....but my most "comforting" carry out and about around town, is my Beretta. (PX 4 full size .40 S&W, 17 + 1, stainless guide rod, oversize mag release....and so on).

    Oh yeah.....LASERED.....

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  7. #51
    Distinguished Member Array GlassWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    For Mil/LE proactively hunting BG's, the laser is a fantastic tool (especially with NVG).

    I'll concede that for the homeowner in certain situations, it is also a great tool.

    For the street fight with guns, I'm not convinced.

    I have a co-worker who was involved in a defensive shooting a couple of years ago. Walking through a parking lot, his assailant emerged between two cars. He threatened to kill my friend as he was reaching into his pocket.

    My co-worker drew first. Ruger LCP, 6 rounds of an unknown HP. All hits.

    Here's the thing, though: all this happened at arms length, in the dark, both parties moving. I believe many think there will be more time to act than actually occurs, but it was over in seconds.

    He and I have discussed this encounter many times. He doesn't believe a laser or night sights would have been of value.

    This is the nature and dynamics of a real fight.

    While anecdotes don't equate to statistical data, I will counter your story with one of my own.
    One of my close friends works security, armed. Recently, he was also involved in a shooting, wherein he was working at a night club, as outside the door armed. 4 people were ejected from the club for whatever reason, after having gotten in with the club owner, and thereby bypassing the frisk at the door.
    One of the 4 thrown out reached the bottom of the ramp outside the door to the club, turned, and shot a bouncer in the back of the head, shot 4 more rounds from his .32 into the bouncer as the man fell, then ran.
    My friend pursued the shooter, and at night, in an ally, emptied two full magazines of .40 caliber ammo from his Glock at the shooter, returning fir. With his night sights, hit the assailant 3 times. one light graze, one shattered shoulder, and one collapsed lung.

    Now, had my friend had a laser on his gun, which he's now in the process of shopping for, he'd have most likely landed most of his shots on target in that dark alley from the distance of about 25 yards.

    Every situation is different, and I'd rather have a tool that I may need, than need it and not have it. That's just my two cents.
    Now I will say the biggest drawback I have seen personally to a laser, if it's not a guide-rod model, is finding a holster that accomodates the rail mount or trigger guard mount accessory.

  8. #52
    Member Array minimalbrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Springer99 View Post
    Lasers worth it................? Given that I don't wear glasses while I sleep and at my age couldn't see irons or night sights clearly in any case. Duh, of course.

    Ask yourself a question. If you were up against someone at night in a defensive situation, would you prefer that they have iron sights, night sights or a laser on their weapon?
    This is something that came to mind the other day. Without contacts or glasses I am blind as a bat. If a noise wakes me up I may only have time to grab one thing. Do I grab my glasses or my gun lol.

    I don't care how busy ones life is. If you want to carry a gun you make time to practice.
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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    I'm kind of anti-laser, if you look at my posts on the subject I typically respond with 'lasers are for sharks' (Austin Powers reference).

    That said, I recently acquired a Kimber Ultra Carry II with the laser built in and I have to say it's pretty nice.

    Now, what I found I really enjoyed was a no shot sight in!

    I used my LaserLyte target and bore system to get it accurate within household distances - the dot of the laser aims precisely where the bore laser hits. That was my biggest gripe about lasers before, as I only have access to an outdoor range which is almost always too bright to actually see a laser dot.

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlassWolf View Post
    While anecdotes don't equate to statistical data, I will counter your story with one of my own.
    One of my close friends works security, armed. Recently, he was also involved in a shooting, wherein he was working at a night club, as outside the door armed. 4 people were ejected from the club for whatever reason, after having gotten in with the club owner, and thereby bypassing the frisk at the door.
    One of the 4 thrown out reached the bottom of the ramp outside the door to the club, turned, and shot a bouncer in the back of the head, shot 4 more rounds from his .32 into the bouncer as the man fell, then ran.
    My friend pursued the shooter, and at night, in an ally, emptied two full magazines of .40 caliber ammo from his Glock at the shooter, returning fir. With his night sights, hit the assailant 3 times. one light graze, one shattered shoulder, and one collapsed lung.

    Now, had my friend had a laser on his gun, which he's now in the process of shopping for, he'd have most likely landed most of his shots on target in that dark alley from the distance of about 25 yards.

    Every situation is different, and I'd rather have a tool that I may need, than need it and not have it. That's just my two cents.
    Now I will say the biggest drawback I have seen personally to a laser, if it's not a guide-rod model, is finding a holster that accomodates the rail mount or trigger guard mount accessory.
    The issue I have with this story, is the assumption that the laser would increase the accuracy, especially in a situation with many active dynamics that have an effect on the shooter such as movement, breathing, and ability to see the target.

    For instance, in a foot chase that as described that is also a moving active shoot, the key to hits is keeping the sight,( whether glowing front night sight, or red laser dot) on the target, while you are pulling the trigger.

    Imagine running, and trying to breath, while shooting. And to complicate the matter, it was dark. To just maintain proper sight on target and also break the trigger without jerking it is a discipline that is difficult enough at the range, let alone with all of these other things going on.

    And that is the thing people seem to forget when talking lasers. The red dot doesnt magically guide the bullets to the target if you dont do your part breaking the shot. And, it certainly doesnt give a better view of the target.

    I am not against laser sights. However, I think this is an example of a poor reason to turn to one based on the dynamics of the given information.

    Alot of credit to the your friend for the hits he did make. I cannot see where a laser sight would have made a big difference, if any at all.
    miller_man and Tayopo like this.
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  11. #55
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Maybe some low-light training would do me some good and may sway my opinion on them, but I personally am not all that thrilled with them at this time. My wife has one on her SP-101 and I've found that they're worthless outside during the day but I can see where they may have a use in the home, under low-light. Until I get some of that training, I don't think my shooting habits and fundamentals would stray from the sights on the gun, especially if I was caught in a bad situation.
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  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array lchamp's Avatar
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    This kind of sounds like the 'caliber wars'. I can't stop chuckling when I read the posts. Like many have said, I consider the laser as just another tool to use when shooting. None of my guns have had lasers before my wife got her Sig with factory laser. I didn't think they were 'necessary', and still don't...but my next gun will have a laser. I like to use her laser for shooting when I can't use a stable stance. I can imagine many situations where I can't get a good sight picture. I really think of it as cheating and don't use the laser that much, but when I do the hole appears real close to where the red dot was.

  13. #57
    Member Array jbailey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post

    For instance, in a foot chase that as described that is also a moving active shoot, the key to hits is keeping the sight,( whether glowing front night sight, or red laser dot) on the target, while you are pulling the trigger.

    Imagine running, and trying to breath, while shooting. And to complicate the matter, it was dark. To just maintain proper sight on target and also break the trigger without jerking it is a discipline that is difficult enough at the range, let alone with all of these other things going on.

    And that is the thing people seem to forget when talking lasers. The red dot doesnt magically guide the bullets to the target if you dont do your part breaking the shot. And, it certainly doesnt give a better view of the target.

    I am not against laser sights. However, I think this is an example of a poor reason to turn to one based on the dynamics of the given information.

    Alot of credit to the your friend for the hits he did make. I cannot see where a laser sight would have made a big difference, if any at all.
    This is exactly where the laser can help someone develop the muscle memory and steadiness that will be needed to help them make shots on target when it counts.

    You can literally dry fire as many "rounds" as you want into a chosen target and see visually when and how much the dot moves. Of course you need live fire sessions as well, but the laser can definitely reduce the learning curve, and save a bunch of $$ on ammo.

    Just think, how does someone like Jerry Miculek shoot like he does? Certainly not by magic. Needless to say Jerry has God given talent to start with, but also by practice. IIRC, he stated he fires 100,000 rounds per year.
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  14. #58
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbailey View Post
    This is exactly where the laser can help someone develop the muscle memory and steadiness that will be needed to help them make shots on target when it counts.

    You can literally dry fire as many "rounds" as you want into a chosen target and see visually when and how much the dot moves. Of course you need live fire sessions as well, but the laser can definitely reduce the learning curve, and save a bunch of $$ on ammo.

    Just think, how does someone like Jerry Miculek shoot like he does? Certainly not by magic. Needless to say Jerry has God given talent to start with, but also by practice. IIRC, he stated he fires 100,000 rounds per year.
    I understand that. But Miculek gets payed to shoot that free ammo, and thats all he has to do. The rest of us have work, family, and other interests.

    And remember this; the muscle memory you build standing and shooting static is not going to work the same while you are running and bouncing up and down while trying to catch your breath as in the above listed situation described.

    Dont get me wrong; I am not trying to discourage someone from getting one, and I certainly dont need lessons on how they work, as I am required to train with them as a part of my job. I am only trying to give a " down to earth " perspective on what they are and are not, based on the observation of seeing people use them, and what I here from people who are considering them.

    Yes, its just another tool. However, if you dont understand the difference in the proper use of a crescent wrench, and a pipe wrench, and the proper application thereof, you are going to not get the right results..and maybe some busted knuckles.

    My advice is if you are considering one, to not pay attention to the hype and advertisers. Consult a reputable trainer, like Mas Ayoob, or Clint Smith, and find out the practicality of it for your uses and needs. Then get the training of its proper use.

    Avoid busted knuckles..they hurt
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  15. #59
    Member Array jbailey's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=glockman10mm;2423128]I understand that. But Miculek gets payed to shoot that free ammo, and thats all he has to do. The rest of us have work, family, and other interests.

    Exactly as I stated earlier.

    And remember this; the muscle memory you build standing and shooting static is not going to work the same while you are running and bouncing up and down while trying to catch your breath as in the above listed situation described.

    I'll agree, but for the average person, practice is beneficial, and will improve overall results, bringing them closer to being able to be on target under stress.

    My point is that any level of performance requires a certain amount of work, and for me, the laser is actually just as valuable as a training aid as it is as a defensive tool. And that it offers an easy way to learn basic trigger and gun control.
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  16. #60
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I'm with you there. It is a great training aid. And a cheap one can be put on an airsoft gun to do your own testing before going " whole hog " on a real one.

    Nothing works for proving or disproving the need for a device like a little FoF in a dark or unlit house.
    Tayopo likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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