Are lasers worth it?

This is a discussion on Are lasers worth it? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Been a great thread. Ive learned a great deal. Get a laser its the best thing since sliced bread. Don't get a laser its of ...

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Thread: Are lasers worth it?

  1. #91
    Member Array Randall757's Avatar
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    Been a great thread. Ive learned a great deal. Get a laser its the best thing since sliced bread. Don't get a laser its of absolutely no use in a real life confrontation. What I actually learned was not to read threads like this. Somewhere in all these opinions is an answer to the question that started this thread.
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  3. #92
    Member Array 1boredguy's Avatar
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    Lasers that turn on automatically might be a consideration for belly guns with minimal sights.
    For larger guns I'd rather save extra money and get a red dot setup, or not buy the laser at all.

  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fausty View Post
    i prefer tac lights. more useful, and in the situation where a laser is useful, (low light) a tac light will do the same thing. (the bullet goes in the center of the light)

    +1

    Lights > lasers.

  5. #94
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKY_DO View Post
    +1

    Lights > lasers.
    Agree to that. Could you imagine how good that pic would look with night sights glowing on it? Best of both worlds; illumination and see-able sights.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  6. #95
    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Agree to that. Could you imagine how good that pic would look with night sights glowing on it? Best of both worlds; illumination and see-able sights.
    For some reason the one thing I can’t see when using a mounted light are my nightsights. I’ve got Trijicons and Meps, and I see the sights silhouetted perfectly in the white light, but cannot see the vials unless I’m really concentrating on them.

    But with the sights silhouetted, why bother?

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  7. #96
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Are lasers worth it? The answer to that question is an opinion.

    The facts are, however, that there are some things that laser sights do better than other sighting systems. Targeting while exposing the least amount of your body to incoming fire when you are behind cover, for example. Documented instances of the laser dot causing a BG to surrender without the need for a shot (and all the aftermath that goes with it) is another example. The ability to get accurate hits with old eyes that can no longer focus on the front sight. Those are facts.

    You need to decide for yourself if these facts make laser sights worth it for you.

    IMHO - folks who don't like lasers just don't want to spend the money on them and don't want to properly train with them, and they will argue until you are blue in the face how unnecessary they are - regardless of the facts outlined above.

    Such is life.

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  8. #97
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Targeting while exposing the least amount of your body to incoming fire when you are behind cover, for example.
    Maybe I need a picture drawn, but I'm having a hard time with this.

    How can one expose less of themselves with a laser? You will still need to expose enough of yourself to see where the dot is on the BG, which will be enough to see the sights (and take a hit).

    And actually, I can keep more of my gun behind cover if I don't have to expose it enough for the laser to clear (depending on where it is mounted).
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  9. #98
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    Lasers may fall into that category of, "You may not need it often, but when you do, nothing else will do." Most that I've read and I haven't read every post, suggest that we assume we will be able to bring the gun up to eye level. Probably in LE applications that will be true; maybe not so true for civilians.

    A laser could, depending on the specific situation, allow a civilian to target a threat without bringing a gun up to eye level. E.g. he could be sitting at a table and without attention-getting overt motions of raising a gun to eye level he could index the gun from just above the table top using the laser.

    If one were injured and possibly down, he might not be able to bring the gun up to eye level.

    OTOH, I can see that running while trying to index a laser could be difficult. But so is aligning two iron sights while moving. BTW, these same things are true for a red dot sight that many claim are so effective. The very situation Gman emphasized is a strike against them, imagine the difficulty of not just aligning a laser, but only having a 1" square window to see it in!

    There will be times a laser could be a disadvantage and there are times it would be an advantage. If one has the laser, he is able to take advantage of it if the opportunity presents itself. If he doesn't have a laser, it's a moot point.

    I think if we took a number of people that shoot occasionally with iron sights and give them a laser sight, I think their hits would improve significantly. Now if we made them move, their hit percentage will decrease dramatically. But the same thing would happen with iron sights if we made them move the same way. The point being, at least the laser can help in static situations - that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

    I want to address the eye thing a bit. There are people that can see 20-20 at, well, 20 feet, but they can't read a book because their eyes can no longer focus up close. This is both common and widespread. It happened to me. One of my eye doctors said that when a person reaches 45 years of age, they will either wear reading glasses or not be able to read. The age will vary, but the result is almost universal. Just stop and think how many middle age people pull out reading glasses to read, but can read a license plate just as well as the next person.

    What's going on here is the eye is still able to focus sharply at 5 feet and beyond. They just can't focus close enough to read a newspaper or see sights at arm's length. I know, I've been there for quite a while now. I ran into a guy at the range Saturday that was in that shape. He could see the target at three yards fine and beyond, he just couldn't focus on his sight.

    Then there's another issue. As we get older, we don't see as well in subdued lighting. I've read that a young person can see twice as good at night as an older person. Put that with some farsightedness and the shooter has a real problem.

    Then let's talk about prescription glasses. You have your glasses on and you see well. You're attacked and your glasses are knocked off. There's only you and the BG. You shove him away and he's a blur. You raise your gun and your sights and your gun is just a blur. But there's a red blur on the BG's blurred COM - you know what to do. Now same scenario without the laser. And I dare say you would not be well served with a red dot sight. The focal plane is on the glass, it may just be a big blob that close.

    I shot with a laser quite a bit. Sometimes I can shoot faster with it, sometimes I can't. But I'm starting to use a LaserMax UniMax laser more now for another reason. I have a head/helmet mount PVS14 milspec NVD. Not that I'm gonna be wearing this around with me, but for home defense it may have an application, but more for emergency/SHTF scenarios. So why the red laser? Because you can't see your sights, or night sights with a NVD. Well, you can, but there just blobs and essentially flood out the target.

    So ah-ha you think, and rightly so, here you have the enormous advantage of night vision and you're going to throw it all away with a red laser - they'll track it right back to you. Here's the trick: LaserMax makes a Uni-IR!!!! It looks just like the red (or green) Uni-Max except it's an infrared laser - the naked eye can't see it! But my NVD can! Now you see the logic behind the method. I can practice with the red laser and don't have to have a dark range to shoot on so often. Dark ranges are hard to come by.

    Sound exteme? Did I mention the Gemtech suppressor?

    Anyway, lasers definitely have a place. Like everything else, they aren't a universal solution to every SD problem. But like someone has already said, "Better to have and not need than to need and not have." Well, I would say yes to that with this caution - don't get so focused on using the laser that your iron sight skills deteriorate.
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  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Maybe I need a picture drawn, but I'm having a hard time with this.

    How can one expose less of themselves with a laser? You will still need to expose enough of yourself to see where the dot is on the BG, which will be enough to see the sights (and take a hit).

    And actually, I can keep more of my gun behind cover if I don't have to expose it enough for the laser to clear (depending on where it is mounted).
    Let's say you're behind a wall - cover. You can put the laser at a different point on the wall than your head is gonna be. The laser should get the attention. You can index the gun with the laser and if they target the laser, and it's very likely they will, it's not lined up with your head or COM.

    It's also possible that you can look through a small crack or look at the threat between a metal mail box and a telephone pole such that you can see them, but probably can't get a good visual on you, much less sight and hit you. You can easily reach around the telephone pole and aim the gun. It's kind of the same deal of holding a flashlight in line with your body or away from your body.

    Granted, these are kind of unlikely scenarios, but one might force it to happen if he's aware of how it works.
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  11. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    OTOH, I can see that running while trying to index a laser could be difficult. But so is aligning two iron sights while moving. BTW, these same things are true for a red dot sight that many claim are so effective. The very situation Gman emphasized is a strike against them, imagine the difficulty of not just aligning a laser, but only having a 1" square window to see it in!
    As a red dot proponent, we do not run and gun at 25 yds. It will be much closer.

    At the distances dynamic GOTX is used, point shooting will work more than good enough.
    But you know this already.

    Glad to see you using the suppressor/laser/NVG. I was wrong before: you aren't totally techno - phobic.

  12. #101
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Maybe I need a picture drawn, but I'm having a hard time with this.

    How can one expose less of themselves with a laser? You will still need to expose enough of yourself to see where the dot is on the BG, which will be enough to see the sights (and take a hit).

    And actually, I can keep more of my gun behind cover if I don't have to expose it enough for the laser to clear (depending on where it is mounted).
    Tangle already addressed this pretty well. Instead of one large target (hand/gun with head/eyeball behind it) the BG now has two much smaller targets to deal with (gun here and head/eyeball over there).

    I did read an AAR of a LE situation where an officer was able to bounce a laser beam off of a reflective surface and target a combative BG. The BG, thinking he was about to get shot by an unseen officer, surrendered with no shots fired. The laser was able to "bluff" the BG into compliance - and all the while the officer was totally behind cover.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Maybe I need a picture drawn, but I'm having a hard time with this.

    How can one expose less of themselves with a laser? You will still need to expose enough of yourself to see where the dot is on the BG, which will be enough to see the sights (and take a hit).

    And actually, I can keep more of my gun behind cover if I don't have to expose it enough for the laser to clear (depending on where it is mounted).
    as I'd said before on this topic, go to any crimson trace dealer in your area, and pick up their free DVD. It will show you perfect examples of this.
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  14. #103
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Tangle already addressed this pretty well. Instead of one large target (hand/gun with head/eyeball behind it) the BG now has two much smaller targets to deal with (gun here and head/eyeball over there).

    I did read an AAR of a LE situation where an officer was able to bounce a laser beam off of a reflective surface and target a combative BG. The BG, thinking he was about to get shot by an unseen officer, surrendered with no shots fired. The laser was able to "bluff" the BG into compliance - and all the while the officer was totally behind cover.
    Now, that may have happened, but its a stretch. Not your common scenario. What the potential buyer really has to decide, is if they want to concentrate on what ifs, or likely happenings. But, its a buyers choice!
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  15. #104
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    Ok glocker, sabres?? I personally experienced a shotgun racking stopping a potential fight, so there ya big lug. Before you say it, Yes I will agree that possibly they ware ready to bolt already--- stillll .

    Don Jose de La Mancha

  16. #105
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    Lades & gentlemen: well some of you are - I think? For actual combat you would have to beat on me to make me use a laser or a flash light in a home type of situation. However, I will say that for ' one hand', point shooting practice, you can only beat a Laser with live ammunition. Since that is very expensive, and time consuming, going to and from a range, a Laser attachmet is almost perfect, but turn it off during a combat situation.

    Combined with simple, dry fire exercises in your home, it will soon turn you into a fantastic point shooter. You will not need to see your sigts in a typical home encounter.

    It can also be a wonderful aid in trigger control exercises. Here is where revolvers shine, dry fire.

    I can give you various examples from self defence to hunting, but suffice to say, 'yes' a laser does have it's place, and it is important, but not in a home defence situation.


    The line forms on the right, Glocker will serve coffee. or he will be on the 12-8 shift on the river feeding the skeeters, indefinitely.


    Don Jose de La Mancha

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