I decided: Glock is definitely my go-to/SHTF gun. Then I do this with my Kimber 1911s

[Tangle]

This is going to address a couple of issues. One, the common philosophy that one should shoot the gun he intends to carry and depend on for his life, a lot more than other guns he may own. Another position is, one should be carrying and shooting the gun he's going to depend on in a SHTF/emergency type crisis.

Given that, I have, make that had, pretty well settled on the Glock 17 for the gun to meet those needs. And, I can give all kinds of reasons for that specific gun and caliber. But, it has become a bit more difficult now. A gun that has pinpoint accuracy, a Kimber 1911, in a SHFT/Emergency situation wouldn't be a bad thing. We may not always be shooting zombies in wide open spaces. All that may be exposed of a BG trying to kill us may be his foot or an elbow sticking out from behind cover. I'd like to be able to hit what's exposed. A hit to the foot immobilizes him and increases your opportunity to escape. Same for an elbow shot, either way, he's hurting, partially incapacitated, and just may do something stupid like poke his head out to curse you - a head shot - game over.

So I'm carrying and shooting my G17, and most lately carrying and shooting a G34 and really liking that. The G34 gives a bit more sight radius and a bit more bullet velocity from the longer barrel for what either of those are worth, if anything.

Then for some reason, I decided to shoot one of my Kimbers. Actually I shot this on 4-Oct-2012. and have been carrying a Glock since. But then today, I saw the target again, and it started me re-thinking.

The gun is a Kimber Super Carry Custom HD. The 3" ShootNC dot was at 15 yards. I shot two, 3 shot groups off-hand, at the target. In the pic, the blue circle shows a ctr-to-ctr group of just under 1". There are 5 shots in that group. One shot got away from me as you can see at about 7 o'clock. Of course I do have several standard excuses for dropping a shot: bad ammo, the guy in the lane beside me actually shot that, I was bumped just as I shot, I was experimenting shooting at 15 yds with my eyes closed, and my favorite, it was a flier - the bullet just flat jumped off the POA all on it's own.



As near and dear as Glocks are to me, and as bad as I hate to have to admit it, I just can't do that with a Glock. And, I shot the group shown above with one Kimber 1911, the Super Carry Custom HD, and shot the following groups, in another session with a Kimber Desert Warrior within the first 100 rounds through it:

One of four targets with groups well under one inch: 3 shots, 5/8" group, centered:


Another target of the same session, 3 shot, 9/16" group, just barely off center:


Conceding that reliability is number one, I realize pinpoint accuracy is not the deciding factor in a carry/SD/SHTF gun, but, OTOH, if the gun is reliable, it's no handicap to know you can place bullets where you need them to go either. Well, we know the two Kimbers referenced here are accurate - amazingly so. But are they reliable? Well I've fired 550 rounds through the Desert Warrior and 500 through the Super Carry Custom HD, and have not had a single malfunction. That's not a lot of rounds, but how many rounds do we need to shoot through a gun before we consider it reliable?

So now I'm torn again. The utility/capacity/caliber advantage of a Glock 17 or 34, versus the ease of shooting and accuracy of a Kimber 1911 weighed against the heavier weight and lower capacity. And, I must be specific about brand because I've shot a lot of brands and I've yet to shoot any other brand as accurately and consistently as I have Kimbers.

Anyway, just when I think I have this settled, finally;........I don't have it settled. Looks like I'm gonna be shooting my Kimbers more now.

Where's that Desert Warrior holster - there it is - gotta go!

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[buckshotshorty]

Tangle, Tangle, Tangle: First off, I have read just about all your posts, which I've always found interesting and informative, and I have to complement you on your shooting ability!
That said, you could probably shoot the eyes out of a rat at 50 paces so I believe it doesn't matter what you have in your hands if your gun is ever needed in a bad situation.
Like most of us your enthusiasm for a particular gun seems to change over time. I remember how enthusiastically you embraced the Sig 250 which I still carry a great deal. Then it was the Glock 17. Now it's the Kimber. I'll bet my underwear that this time next year it will be still another.
Keep up the good reviews; I really enjoy them.

[kmagnuss]

I would bet with about 20 rounds of practice you could do that with a Lorcin.

With a tiny bit of dry fire practice you could do it with your Glock. I love 1911's but you have a talent and I wouldn't count out the Glock just yet. Think of it more as a challenge. :)

[Tangle]

Tangle, Tangle, Tangle: First off, I have read just about all your posts, which I've always found interesting and informative, and I have to complement you on your shooting ability!
That said, you could probably shoot the eyes out of a rat at 50 paces so I believe it doesn't matter what you have in your hands if your gun is ever needed in a bad situation.

That's beyond kind! Thank you very much!

...Like most of us your enthusiasm for a particular gun seems to change over time. I remember how enthusiastically you embraced the Sig 250 which I still carry a great deal.

Nothin' at all wrong with the P250. May be one of the best and most under appreciated gun ever made. I still have a 9mm full size and a frame and slide for a .45ACP full size. Just a matter of a simple fire control unit swap! And they are accurate! Mine is reliable as the day is long.

... Then it was the Glock 17. Now it's the Kimber. I'll bet my underwear that this time next year it will be still another.

Oh, you wanna bet huh, ok, I'll see your underwear and raise you a sock - oops - wait a minute - that didn't come out right.

In any event, I'd lose the bet. I've been trying to pick the ultimate gun for me for over 10 years, and here I am still doing the same circle.

I used to include the P229/226 DA/SA and even DAKs and M&Ps in the rotation. Now I seem to have narrowed the field to Kimber 1911s and a Glock 17 gen 4 or G34 gen 4. I doubt I'll ever decide finally between the two, and between the 1911 and Glock platform, that's about the worst compatibility issue one could have.

...Keep up the good reviews; I really enjoy them.

Thanks again!

One reason I post about shooting, is to encourage people to get out and shoot. Even if you're old like me, that doesn't necessarily mean you can't shoot - you just have to get your eyes/glasses optimized, use good, consistent shooting technique and get out and shoot.

[Tangle]

I would bet with about 20 rounds of practice you could do that with a Lorcin.

Come on guys, I'm turning blush red here. Seriously thanks for that. You guys encourage me and it helps. Kinda makes me work harder to keep from letting down the gang! Thanks!

...With a tiny bit of dry fire practice you could do it with your Glock. I love 1911's but you have a talent and I wouldn't count out the Glock just yet. Think of it more as a challenge. :)

Good point and I don't want anyone to think Glocks aren't accurate - they are!

As you can see from my posts, I shoot more than some people think should be legal. I just checked my records - for this entire year the vast majority of my shooting has been almost equally divided between Kimber and Glock. I've shot my P250, some P226/9s, M&Ps and they are all fine guns and accurate.

I think my appreciation for the Glock is it's simplicity and utility. That's not to say it isn't accurate or that it can't be shot accurately. But between the Glock and a Kimber 1911, 'my' consistently best accuracy goes to Kimber. The Glock isn't far behind, but still not a match for the Kimber.

But, I don't see how anyone could say a Glock isn't accurate!

And, just for you M&Pers - a fine gun, very accurate. But I have to choose; I have to thin the heard and I've begrudgingly decided my Glocks and Kimbers, and my Colt rail gun will be my keepers.

[DaGunny]

I have a similar problem between my 1911 Kimber Super Carry Custom HD and my Sig P226 (Glocks are great, but I don't like their ergonomics). Both are extremely accurate, but I keyhole more with the Kimber. That being said, I've decided on the Sig for SHTF/BO because of its higher capacity (18 with +2 mags) and weight.

[Tangle]

I have a similar problem between my 1911 Kimber Super Carry Custom HD and my Sig P226 (Glocks are great, but I don't like their ergonomics). Both are extremely accurate, but I keyhole more with the Kimber. That being said, I've decided on the Sig for SHTF/BO because of its higher capacity (18 with +2 mags) and weight.

I know exactly what you mean! And +1 on the higher capacity.

[smolck]

Most of my 1911's (and for sure my Kimber) will outshoot my M&P9c, at least in my hands. But even though I have been buying up 1911's these days, the M&P9c is still my go to for EDC and "combat". Nothing wrong with any of them, but for my thoughts on carry recently changed when I got some time with a training guru.

[Indio]

I have 11 pistols and 9 of them are 1911's and for the same reason, I can shoot them better than anything else I have shot out there(with the exception of an XD9 which I did really good).

[10thmtn]

I'm glad that your Kimbers have been reliable, but to answer your question - "how many rounds do we need to shoot through a gun before we consider it reliable?" - Kimber states that their pistols need a 500 round break-in (IIRC). So...your Kimbers are just "broken in." IMHO - I would need to see at least another 200 (really more like 500) flawless rounds before I would call them "good."

A good way to make a decision like this is to list the attributes that you feel are important, asign each attribute a weight, and decide which gun wins each category. The highest overall score is the winner.

Of course, in your heart, you know who the winner is. The only advantage the Kimbers have is in accuracy - and the Glock is more than accurate enough.

[Tangle]

...The only advantage the Kimbers have is in accuracy - and the Glock is more than accurate enough.

Well Kimbers are easier to shoot too. I suppose that sounds like an opinion, but the 1911 trigger makes breaking the shot easier and faster. That doesn't mean that I could shoot a 1911 faster than Jerry M., but it does mean I can shoot a 1911 more accurately and easier than I can a Glock. And I shoot both guns enough to make that statement.

As for more than accurate enough, I think that would depend on how big the target is, how far away it is, how much time you have to make the shot, and the consequence of a miss.

[nedrgr21]

Fantastic shooting as usual. Pinpoint accuracy is great, but would you be able to do that in the middle of a fight. Do a bunch a jumping jacks, a short sprint, and push ups and then see if the difference in accuracy of the Kimber will do you any good - those foot/elbow shots may not even be an option. Those extra rounds may become more important than the pinpoint accuracy. You may change your mind yet again. Thanks, this is fun. I bet a lot of it is the trigger - do you have a Ghost rocket connecter? - I can't remember if that was one of your earlier posts.

[MLittle]

I'm wrestling with the same issues you are..... Most of the "experts" tell you to carry the gun you shoot the best provided all are equally reliable. I started out shooting and carrying Glocks, but then discovered Sig pistols. I tried for over a year to shoot my Glock as well as my Sig, but for me the Sig was just more accurate. Even with the da/sa transition, I shoot my Sig P220 better than my Glock 30. Earlier this year I purchased my first 1911, a Colt Lightweight Commander XSE. WOW! Was I surprised by how easy it is to shoot it quickly and accurately. I thought I shot the Sig well until I began shooting the Colt. Now I'm debating whether to move to the Colt for carry. The Colt did have function problems during the first 200-300 rounds, but has been 100% reliable since. Now I have over 1,000 rounds through it. At 10 yards I was shooting through the same hole..... I know it's a different manual of arms, but shooting the 1911 is such a rewarding experience. Again, the experts tell us accuracy is the most important element in self defense situations.....getting that first shot on target. For me...that may be with a 1911.

[ksblazer]

Tangle: Like others here I also enjoy reading your posts. Keep them coming

You make some good points on my 2 favorite styles of hahndguns. 1911's and Glocks. They are my keepers as well.

While I shoot my 1911's a little more accuratly. I've decided to go with my Glock's if SHTF and mostly carry my Glocks for CC. Even though I carry my Colt Defender from time to time and snub .38's for a 2nd gun.

While I hope to become as good as shot as you are with these 2 platforms. My goal is to be proficient with all different styles of handguns. Not sure if that will happen, but it's a goal of mine. Right now I'm struggling with my recently purchased Sig P220. I know everyone says they are really accurate. But I get frusterated with shooting it compared to my Glocks and 1911's. I'm sure that will change with more range time though.




I shoot my 1st shot the most accuratly with the 1911's, so that is why I like CC'ing the 1911. But I like the weight, not having to swipe a safety and the capacity of the Glocks. (probably could come up with some other reasons, but those are the main ones and I don't want to see this turn into a 1911/Glock debate.) Some days I think I should switch to CC'ing the 1911 more often. But for now, I'm going to stick with my Glocks.

[Tangle]

Fantastic shooting as usual.

Thanks man! You know I really appreciate that!

...Pinpoint accuracy is great, but would you be able to do that in the middle of a fight.

Maybe, describe the gunfight. How far away is the BG? Does he know I'm there? Is he only partially exposed - maybe just half of his head? Are there innocents near and/or overlapping him either behind, in front or beside him that would be in danger if a shot missed? Is he shielding himself with an innocent?

I can always shoot worse in a gunfight if I need to, rarely better. Although in one case Ayoob wrote about, an LE made a 73 yard shot on a moving BG with a .357 revolver and stopped him with one shot! He must have been pretty calm.

...Do a bunch a jumping jacks, a short sprint, and push ups and then see if the difference in accuracy of the Kimber will do you any good - those foot/elbow shots may not even be an option. Those extra rounds may become more important than the pinpoint accuracy. You may change your mind yet again. Thanks, this is fun.

Well, I hear ya and that's exactly my conundrum - I even commented about this in the OP - more rounds and less accuracy or fewer rounds and more accuracy.

Not every gunfight is an adrenaline pumping event, it depends on the situation. As I described above: How far away is the BG? Does he know I'm there? Is he partially exposed - maybe just half of his head? Are there innocents near him either behind, in front or beside him that would be in danger if a shot missed? Is he shielding himself with an innocent?

It is as equally valid to say we may not need extra rounds, as it is to say the foot/elbow/head shot may not be an option. It depends on the situation. History indicates bullet placement and fewer rounds. Capacity is important, that's why I'm so divided over this. But when you put 5 rounds in a one inch group at 15 yards and can shoot rapid fire effectively also, it really makes a strong impression on you, it least it did me. And not only just the hits, but the ease of hits is hard to put in words.

...I bet a lot of it is the trigger - do you have a Ghost rocket connecter? - I can't remember if that was one of your earlier posts.

I have YouTube videos about how to install a Ghost Rocket and use a Dave Spaulding cut on the tab to shorten the reset. Dave came up with the idea and it really works. If the Glock loses its 'snap' on the reset, which it may do with Dave's cut, I know how to fix that.

I've shot with a complete Fulcrum trigger kit in one of my Glocks, even used the reduced power springs - it shames a Ghost Rocket, but I still couldn't shoot as well with a Glock as I do my Kimbers. I put the stock springs back in, removed the Fulcrum connector (3.5#) and installed and fitted a Ghost Rocket connector to get the shorter reset without screw adjustments - I just didn't like the way the set screws worked. It looks like a bit of debris could cause a malfunction.

Then I installed a red dot sight, Burris FastFire III on my G34 and fitted a Ghost Rocket connector, again with Dave's design and I couldn't shoot as good with that as I could my Kimbers.

But your points are well made and certainly received. One of my arguments for the Glock and 9mm in a SHTF situation is not only capacity, but the issue of transporting ammo when mobility is necessary. One can carry twice as much 9mm 115 gn ammo as 230 gn .45ACP. Even going to 185 gn .45ACP doesn't help much. There is all the difference in the world picking up 500 rounds of .45 acp both in weight an bulk compared to 9mm.

I'm not saying we'd need 500 rounds of ammo, but if we didn't know when 'it' would end, we might go a bit heavy on the round count just in case. If we come back home with all of it that would be great.

Some carry some specific caliber because they think in a SHTF situation, that caliber will be easier to find. The problem is, in a serious SHTF scenario, all the stores that might have ammo will be looted and/or burned. It's highly unlikely we'd be able to find a single round of any ammo. Wouldn't everyone else be looking for it too?

Anyway you made some excellent points!